@CowsCorner - 202 followers and counting!
Disclaimer: I am a biased South African. Anything I say is likely to have something in it that ultimately favours the Proteas.
1) Hadlee played for a small country like NZ who play series that most consider irrelevant, while Lillee played in the Ashes and Australia were always a big team. Hence it's a lot easier for people to remember Lillee's performances and for Lillee to become a "big match player". It's much easier to become a big match player in a 5 test Ashes series than in a minor New Zealand series which hardly anyone is properly following. This concept applies to Warne and Murali also.
2) Lillee was the more aggressive personality and showman than Hadlee which made him more entertaining to watch, and as humans we are naturally more biased to rate the more entertaining player as being the better player even when it's not the case.
There are other points in favor of lillee though. He is one of very few bowlers who did great both as part of the great attack and as a lone man in abysmal attack in different parts of his career. Also I think him getting his back canned, and coming back from injury is generally considered to be one of the great achievements for a fast bowler, let alone getting better after that. One more thing generally considered is Lillee is a kind of prototype for the modern fast bowlers that came after him which resulted in his enormous legacy. So most people look upon hadlee as the follower(might even better than the original, but not really clear cut), while Lille is the trail blazer.
I really disagree when people rate players purely on bowling / batting averages.
An interesting case is Holding / Marshal rating.
While Holding's bowling average is 13% higher than Marshal's,
- Top 6 Batting averages where 12.6% higher in the matches played by Holding
- Basically the same batting line was used for both players, so we are comparing like with like
- I recently saw Imran rated Holding marginally ahead of Marshall who was marginally
ahead of Ambrose. Given the higher Batting averages when Holding played,
Imran may be correct.
Batting with Holding: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting with Marshal: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting with Ambrose: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting with Lillee: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
If you look at the Australian batting averages in the period,
- The batting averages are high when Lillee plays.
- The batting Averages of the second string Batsmen really jump when Lillee plays,
the Top batsmen (Chappell's, Border, Redpath) tend to stay much the same.
One Thing I have noticed for ATG bowlers (Apart from McGrath) is
* If batsmen struggle, the bowler will probably average around 21 (e.g. Marshal, Ambrose, AK Davidson)
- If batsmen struggle, the bowler will probably average around 21 (e.g. Marshal, Ambrose, AK Davidson)
- If the batsmen do well, the bowler will probably average be 23+ (Lillee, Holding, Steyn)
- If you are McGrath, you break the above rule
I am not trying to rate the player'sw, but just making the point that
with higher bowling averages tend to play in teams where the batsmen score a lot of runs
- Bowling is not about producing a better average, but taking 20 wickets for less
than your opponents do on a Match by Match basis.
Funny enough Morkel and Lee's careers arcs both with Tests and ODI seem to be identical. Both played with strong lineups with superior bowlers.
the 8th of September 1937 not looking good tbh
Reliance ICC Player Rankings
W.R. Hammond - a top 10 bowler in the world. suck it bradman
Brad McNamara @bbuzzmc
Will say this once and then nothing else. Defamation laws quite clear in Aus.be careful.
1) Ross is the Boss.
2) See point 1.
Overrated XI M Bracewell, Burns, Rahane, Don Voges, Bairstow, Alecz Day, Donovan Grobelaar, Luke Ronchi, Faulkner, Dan Christian, Permaul
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