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Is Dale Steyn the worst ever best fast bowler in the world?

Arachnodouche

International Captain
And I used to love watching McGrath bowl! Sure he didn't bowl ***y deliveries but he had every bit of that aura that as an opposition fan made you feel like total ****. Far, far more dangerous than a Wasim Akram for mine.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Yes I understand that to an extent but to even hint that he is the "worst" of the best fast bowlers in the world is ridiculous. He is the best of all the fast bowlers in the world today and that should be an unqualified statement from anyone who understands the game. I can not understand being less than fully appreciative of a great bowler like Steyn, now closer to the end of his great career than his peak and at the same time gush over Philander and rate him higher when that bowler, howsoever "great" he turns out to be, is just in the infancy of his.

Their is dichotomy here that goes far beyond what you are saying and which I appreciate as a general comment, but I think there is more to it. People wrote of Lillee before he had retired as Trueman wrote in 1983
"unquestionably one of the all-time greats. . . He is the last of what I would describe as the classic fast bowlers . . . which I would willingly watch all day. a fine running action worthy of an Olympic athlete . . . couple with balance, rhythm, fire in the belly, stamina and big heart and you are close to greatness. His action and timing cannot be bettered."​
Bailey writing at the same time wrote . . .
Dennis is the complete fast bowler who has gone on harvesting wickets long after he lost his fearsome pace. He is the Mohammad Ali of cricket, an artist . . . His long, spectacular approach, glorious body action and sheer speed combined with his highly volatile temrament to make him the most exciting fast bowler, ever, to visit these shores since Ray Lindwall . . .There was drama whenever Lillee bowled because he was sufficiently fast to beat good players . . . by sheer speed through the air. His bouncer came close to being lethal, while his yorker, especially at the start of the innings, frequently was . . .

How did Dennis Lillee compare with Lindwall? Although Rodney Marsh claimed that he did not bowl an outstanding yorker, something which Lindwall certainly posessed, and was noticeably less effective against left-handers, I am inclined to believe that in all conditions he was possibly even more formidable (than Lindwall) because his action was steeper though not with the new ball, which ray used to swing more. Ray, despite having a good command of the vernacular, never engaged in verbal abuse, which became an accepted part of the Lillee scene . . . Fast bowlers have always been an aggressive breed, and Dennis Lillee was unquestionably both one of the most aggressive and one of the greatest. He did not merely dislike opposing batsmen, he regarded them as Generl Sherman regarded Red Indians, "the only good Injun is a dead Injun" . . . Not that there was anything new about his attitude and his hatred for batsmen.​
I quote these two England fast bowlers not just to show that people called contemprary cricketers all time greats, as Sir Len Hutton famously called Gavaskar in a remarkably laudatory piece right during Sunny's career itself but to point out how greatness is recognised. Just read those two quotes on Lillee - and I can put so many others about Lillee and others like this - where there is no reference to statistics when ranking a player amongst the game's all time greats. Not just that, the nuanced explanation of how and why they rated a player as great are very interesting and cricket fans should learn from these on how to appreciate great cricket and great players.

These are not cliched terms that Trueman and Bailey use but very precise observations on a great bowler, his art and his attitude to his craft. Fans need to inculcate this not so that they change their views on who is greater but to understand why their heroes were great - over and above the rudimentary and dry evidence of stats.
some great quotes there on Lillee
 

abyrulesdforum

Cricket Spectator
Steyn.. One of the finest pacer in our era right now. At this age he is remarkably consistent with line & speed.. One of the greats we would reckon once he retires
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
The most significant development in Steyn's arsenal is the one that jags back in off the seam. He doesn't quite have an inswinger yet, not one I've noticed with any regularity anyway. But if he can throw in that in ducker with the kind of consistency he shows for his stock ball, he'd be close to unplayable when on song.
It'd be pretty counter-productive for Steyn to work on an inswinger considering how good his outswinger/straight one combo is. Inswingers tend to be easier to pick for the batsman and harder for the bowler to control.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Nah I'm with the "inswinger would make him unplayable" camp. Assuming it doesn't compromise his wrist position for the outie, it'd make batsmen even more likely to play at wider ones. Would make him a much bigger threat to the left handers, too.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Yeah it certainly would, but I can only assume that he hasn't yet because it compromises the rhythm of his outswinger too much. Kind of like how Warne didn't bother with a genuine googly for most of his career.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
It's interesting I guess to compare him to Anderson on that front, who swings his outswinger as much as Steyn and does have a very good inswinger. Obviously they are two different bowlers with different actions but Steyn's control and consistency is better than Anderson's and he's a far more effective bowler despite having less in his armoury as a result. Swinging it both ways is a bit of a party trick IMO; it's nice if you can control it but I think you're probably better off perfecting the art of swinging it one way at pace and having a reliable cutter to go the other way off the deck.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
It's interesting I guess to compare him to Anderson on that front, who swings his outswinger as much as Steyn and does have a very good inswinger. Obviously they are two different bowlers with different actions but Steyn's control and consistency is better than Anderson's and he's a far more effective bowler despite having less in his armoury as a result. Swinging it both ways is a bit of a party trick IMO; it's nice if you can control it but I think you're probably better off perfecting the art of swinging it one way at pace and having a reliable cutter to go the other way off the deck.
^yeah that. Should carry PEWS around wherever I go so he can re-word everything I say.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Ambrose bowled to some great Aussie batsmen though. I'm not a big fan of Lillee and there were times on flat pitches he looked pretty pedestrian.
 

Гурин

School Boy/Girl Captain
Hell even if you don't take those thing into account there is a difference of .70 between them (.4 between him and Ambrose). A class apart indeed.
Bah, this is just ridiculous. When I tried to compare wicketkeepers by sheer averages of balls per dismissals (same bowler), there were lots of problems being rightfully singled out, the pitch, the bowler, the opposition, the weather, all of this to (unfairly) demonstrate that eventually those numbers are absolutely useless.

On the other side, bowling average is considered something much less questionable. We make such a big deal out of a player averaging 2 or 3 runs more per wicket in the same era and same country, but nevermind that the fact that one player had one fielding unit around him and the other player another could possibly inflate of deflate his average by a much bigger margin. I'm not talking about pitches or grounds, because at least people seems to recognize that they might have actually an impact, just how, as usual, fielding is criminally overlooked, and we're discussing that similar averages means players are of the same level.

NOTE: I'm not saying that everybody does this assumption that averages in one country have some kind of quasi-mystical status because fielding teams are all considered roughly the same, but reading some of the posting around this forum it seems that some people do never consider fielding. Which is a shame.
 
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vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it :sleep:
Want to make the disclaimer that I rate him so highly, and love watching him bowl.

But there is something so intensely personal about each wicket celebration, that pause after the decision is made, the deep breath and then the roar and fist pump in recognition of victory in battle. It strikes me as the type of celebration one would make after finding out that he'd made a representative team, and then excusing himself from everyone else, and going nuts in private.

It's sort of anti-showmanship, and I appreciate him all the more for it on a personal level; he'd probably do the same thing each time he took a wicket in backyard cricket, but I can see how his whole personality doesn't see people find him like others from the past.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Nah I'm with the "inswinger would make him unplayable" camp. Assuming it doesn't compromise his wrist position for the outie, it'd make batsmen even more likely to play at wider ones. Would make him a much bigger threat to the left handers, too.
Nah, it's like those blokes at each cricket club who try and bowl big outties, and then go the big inswinger. Looks ***y, not as effective.

An off-cutter is all he needs to have the full arsenal, far more effective than an inswinger.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Want to make the disclaimer that I rate him so highly, and love watching him bowl.

But there is something so intensely personal about each wicket celebration, that pause after the decision is made, the deep breath and then the roar and fist pump in recognition of victory in battle. It strikes me as the type of celebration one would make after finding out that he'd made a representative team, and then excusing himself from everyone else, and going nuts in private.

It's sort of anti-showmanship, and I appreciate him all the more for it on a personal level; he'd probably do the same thing each time he took a wicket in backyard cricket, but I can see how his whole personality doesn't see people find him like others from the past.
Yeah I love his celebration, personally.
 

Cabinet96

Global Moderator
By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it :sleep:
I love Steyn, I don't understand why people hate on him so much.. Nostalgia, perhaps?
I don't think I've ever met someone who doesn't like Steyn though, both in real life and on the internet. He probably doesn't get talked about as much as his Australian, Indian and English counterparts, however, and that's probably because there are very few South African's on cricket forums. Think the same could be said for Kallis and SM Pollock.
 

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