Choose the two opening bowlers for Post Packer World XI

[Precambrian]

Imran benefitted from a lot of not-outs too. Botham is comfortably the batsman of the two for mine, even allowing for the fat phase.

He averaged in the 60s batting at No. 4 and 5 mate, and if that is owing to not outs in tests, I'd say he did a good job.

 

[G.I.Joe]

He averaged in the 60s batting at No. 4 and 5 mate, and if that is owing to not outs in tests, I'd say he did a good job.

If we're going to let a couple of dozen innings represent Imran the batsman, I say let Bothams early career represent him and call him the greatest all rounder ever. How was Imran's bowling in the matches he batted higher up?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Who all were better than Gilly? Reckon Hayden, Ponting, Waugh, and perhaps Hussey for a small period of time? I don't think Jnr, Langer, Martyn, Clarke etc excelled Gilly.

They were all genuine Test class batsman, something Pakistan didn't always have in their top 6 when Imran was batting in the lower order.

 

[Precambrian]

If we're going to let a couple of dozen innings represent Imran the batsman, I say let Bothams early career represent him and call him the greatest all rounder ever. How was Imran's bowling in the matches he batted higher up?

He ensured that his GUV (Gross Utility Value) to the team remained more or less throughout his career, and it was such a longer career than Botham's.

 

[Precambrian]

They were all genuine Test class batsman, something Pakistan didn't always have in their top 6 when Imran was batting in the lower order.

Who all you think are not "test' class in the list of Pak batsmen I listed?

 

[zaremba]

Imran benefitted from a lot of not-outs too.

...ie, the bowlers weren't good enough to get him out on a lot of occasions. I still can't see why it's thought that having a certain number of "not outs" flatters a batsman's ability.

 

[zaremba]

p.s. hard to pick between Imran and Botham. At their respective peaks, Botham was perhaps the better all-round player, and he was probably the more naturally talented of the two. Over the course of their careers, however, Imran wins hands down - just look at his record. Imran made the most of his talent and deserves enormous credit for that. Botham pissed his away.

 

[Uppercut]

...ie, the bowlers weren't good enough to get him out on a lot of occasions. I still can't see why it's thought that having a certain number of "not outs" flatters a batsman's ability.

AWTA. It's a complete fallacy IMO.

 

[G.I.Joe]

He ensured that his GUV (Gross Utility Value) to the team remained more or less throughout his career, and it was such a longer career than Botham's.

But it was a utility as an excellent bowler who could bat a bit morphed into a statistically bloated batsman who was almost finished as a bowler. Not as a consistent all rounder.

 

[zaremba]

But it was a utility as an excellent bowler who could bat a bit morphed into a statistically bloated batsman who was almost finished as a bowler. Not as a consistent all rounder.

In his last ten years of international cricket he played 51 Tests, averaging 50 with the bat and 19 with the ball.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Who all you think are not "test' class in the list of Pak batsmen I listed?

They were all Test class but that's a random selection of batsman not a regular top 6 that were forcing Imran down the order.

 

[Precambrian]

...ie, the bowlers weren't good enough to get him out on a lot of occasions. I still can't see why it's thought that having a certain number of "not outs" flatters a batsman's ability.

Fully AWTA. I can understand the argument for middle order batsmen who bat like snails on wheelchairs and yet manage to boost their average just because they end up not out. But never in tests.

 

[Precambrian]

They were all Test class but that's a random selection of batsman not a regular top 6 that were forcing Imran down the order.

No, TBH, that's hardly a random selection of batsmen. And Imran's career outlived that of any of his compatriots (save perhaps Miandad), hence he never had a "stable" 6 above him for any part of his career. And indeed towards the end, he started batting up the order.

 

[Precambrian]

But it was a utility as an excellent bowler who could bat a bit morphed into a statistically bloated batsman who was almost finished as a bowler. Not as a consistent all rounder.

In his last ten years of international cricket he played 51 Tests, averaging 50 with the bat and 19 with the ball.

This.

 

[G.I.Joe]

...ie, the bowlers weren't good enough to get him out on a lot of occasions. I still can't see why it's thought that having a certain number of "not outs" flatters a batsman's ability.

Well, Botham and Imran offer a perfect example why I think that way. Go by the raw figures. Imran scored 30.2 runs per innings, Botham scored 32.3 runs per innings. Yet their averages of 37 and 33 respectively suggests that Imran contributed a lot more to his team with the bat than Botham did. What good are not outs if you're still contributing less to a team than the guy who did get out?

 

[G.I.Joe]

This.

Meh. What about his bowling average in his last 17 tests? That 50 test statistic is one of the most overrated on this forum.

 

[Precambrian]

Meh. What about his bowling average in his last 17 tests? That 50 test statistic is one of the most overrated on this forum.

Meh, I cannot give you different stats. Even if overused those are as good as any stats.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

No, TBH, that's hardly a random selection of batsmen. And Imran's career outlived that of any of his compatriots (save perhaps Miandad), hence he never had a "stable" 6 above him for any part of his career. And indeed towards the end, he started batting up the order.

That's the point, through hard work he turned himself into a capable number 5 or 6 later on when for "much of his career" he wasn't good enough to bat there.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Meh, I cannot give you different stats. Even if overused those are as good as any stats.

I said over rated, not overused, although the latter would be correect too. Amazing coincidence how his batting average takes off as his bowling workload decreases.

 

[Uppercut]

Well, Botham and Imran offer a perfect example why I think that way. Go by the raw figures. Imran scored 30.2 runs per innings, Botham scored 32.3 runs per innings. Yet their averages of 37 and 33 respectively suggests that Imran contributed a lot more to his team with the bat than Botham did. What good are not outs if you're still contributing less to a team than the guy who did get out?

Hum I guess you have a point if Botham EITHER scored more quickly than Imran AND/OR they played in teams with equally strong tails.