Choose the two opening bowlers for Post Packer World XI

[fredfertang]

Realistically for the opening bowlers slots this is perm any two from 10 so I went for Marshall and Hadlee on the basis that their 8th wicket partnerships would be the most memorable

 

[zaremba]

Though I voted for Greenidge in the openers' poll (alongwith Gavaskar), I won't mind if Hayden wins this poll....

I can see that he's a champion player and all that, but consider his Test bowling figures:

matches: 103
overs: 9
runs: 40
wickets: 0
Average: infinity

 

[weldone]

I can see that he's a champion player and all that, but consider his Test bowling figures:

matches: 103
overs: 9
runs: 40
wickets: 0
Average: infinity

OK replace 'this' by 'that' in my part of the post that you have quoted and see if you can derive any meaning out of it (or this? or that?)..

 

[Precambrian]

Being underrated and being as good as Sobers aren't the same thing though.

It might sound ridiculous, but I regard Kallis to be on the same level as Sir Gary, if not better.

 

[zaremba]

OK replace 'this' by 'that' in my part of the post that you have quoted and see if you can derive any meaning out of it (or this? or that?)..

Just pulling your leg, mate

 

[weldone]

Just pulling your leg, mate

 

[stephen]

I don't know whether Kallis was as good as Sobers, but I definitely think he belongs in the debate. When Sobers played, the standard you needed to push yourself to in order to play international cricket to a good standard was lower- there was still an amateur ethos, fitness wasn't so vital, fielding was less intense. This is the case for all players compared across eras- it's generally not fair to hold it against players from earlier eras.

However, on the other hand, you have to give Kallis the credit for being good enough to bat and bowl to the standard he has in this era. I think people are so accustomed to it that it's forgotten how awesome an achievement it really is. It's almost the equivalent of one of the greatest footballers in the world also being good enough to represent their country at rugby. Yet both skills are combined into the same sport, giving one incredible match-winning machine. I haven't even started on his slip-catching.

And he's kept on doing it for years and years and years without being burnt out. His 14-year career has contained 128 tests and almost 300 ODIs. He has over 20,000 international runs and is just short of 500 international wickets. And he's STILL going!

Kallis gets nowhere near the respect he deserves IMO. He maybe isn't glamorous or inspiring- he's never hit six sixes off an over, he takes most of his wickets through tight, economical bowling, he scores with a lower strike rate that a lot of his contemporaries. But he just quietly keeps on churning out the runs and taking the wickets. In his own way, he truly is one of the most incredible cricketers around.

I think what makes people underrate Kallis is his tendency for selfish play. He has the talent in both disciplines but sometimes it seems that he plays more for his average than his team.

However that's all I can hold against him. He's the finest all rounder in at least the last twenty years (yes, even better than Shane Lee ).

 

[Precambrian]

I think what makes people underrate Kallis is his tendency for selfish play. He has the talent in both disciplines but sometimes it seems that he plays more for his average than his team.

However that's all I can hold against him. He's the finest all rounder in at least the last twenty years (yes, even better than Shane Lee ).

How does one play for average while bowling? And his batting SR is hardly criminal.

 

[Uppercut]

I think what makes people underrate Kallis is his tendency for selfish play. He has the talent in both disciplines but sometimes it seems that he plays more for his average than his team.

That only really accounts for ODIs (i don't think it's true, but it's only realistically possible in ODIs). How do you bat for your averages in tests without helping your team? You just try to score runs or take wickets. There's a few very specific and rare circumstances where it's possible to bat for your average rather than the team in tests, and I'd like to hear a few examples of Kallis doing this. But otherwise, your average and your team have parallel aims.

Unless you're suggesting he deliberately runs the tail out or the like.

 

[stephen]

How does one play for average while bowling? And his batting SR is hardly criminal.

That only really accounts for ODIs (i don't think it's true, but it's only realistically possible in ODIs). How do you bat for your averages in tests without helping your team? You just try to score runs or take wickets. There's a few very specific and rare circumstances where it's possible to bat for your average rather than the team in tests, and I'd like to hear a few examples of Kallis doing this. But otherwise, your average and your team have parallel aims.

Unless you're suggesting he deliberately runs the tail out or the like.

A couple of instances spring to mind, but they really aren't worth bringing up. It is probably more of a perception than a reality.

Having said that, he'd be in any current side in the world no questions asked. I really rate him but there are some things that I don't like about his style.

He pretty much cost his side any chance of beating us in the WC match in '07 where SA were trying to chase down 380 and were on target. He came in and started crabbing along at a strike rate of 80. Killed the momentum completely.

EDIT: I realised that I just contradicted myself but meh, I can't be screwed thinking atm.

 

[Uppercut]

A couple of instances spring to mind, but they really aren't worth bringing up. It is probably more of a perception than a reality.

Having said that, he'd be in any current side in the world no questions asked. I really rate him but there are some things that I don't like about his style.

He pretty much cost his side any chance of beating us in the WC match in '07 where SA were trying to chase down 380 and were on target. He came in and started crabbing along at a strike rate of 80. Killed the momentum completely.

EDIT: I realised that I just contradicted myself but meh, I can't be screwed thinking atm.

Yeah, a lot of players do that occasionally though. It was Rahul Dravid's trademark when he was in India's ODI side and noone ever describes him as selfish. More recently, Kandamby and Jayawardene did it horribly for Sri Lanka and ended up getting themselves out anyway by leaving themselves too much to do. It's really one of my pet peeves in cricket, overly negative ODI batting, but it's far from unique to Kallis (pretty much everyone does it at some point in their career when struggling for form) and I don't think it's due to selfishness.

 

[Precambrian]

Lol, when since batting at 100 SR was termed as selfish??

The target was 380 FFS.

 

[stephen]

Lol, when since batting at 100 SR was termed as selfish??

The target was 380 FFS.

Did you watch the game?

Until Smith was run out South Africa were on target to make the total. They had previously made a higher total and had the belief that they could do it. Kallis came in and totally killed the momentum, when in reality he should have been carefree even if it cost him his wicket.

I'm not saying that Kallis lost them that game (rather I think Australia won it rather than South Africa losing it), but I am saying that he cost them the opportunity to win the game.

I think it appears selfish because Kallis has so much talent more than anything else.

 

[zaremba]

That only really accounts for ODIs (i don't think it's true, but it's only realistically possible in ODIs). How do you bat for your averages in tests without helping your team? You just try to score runs or take wickets. There's a few very specific and rare circumstances where it's possible to bat for your average rather than the team in tests, and I'd like to hear a few examples of Kallis doing this. But otherwise, your average and your team have parallel aims.

Unless you're suggesting he deliberately runs the tail out or the like.

I'm with you all the way on this one Uppercut.

One player who sometimes looked as though he cherished his average a little too much was Steve Waugh. The commentators would always praise him for putting so much faith in tailenders. I never felt that his motives were quite so selfless...

 

[Uppercut]

I'm with you all the way on this one Uppercut.

One player who sometimes looked as though he cherised his average a little too much was Steve Waugh. The commentators would always praise him for putting so much faith in tailenders. I never felt that his motives were quite so selfless...

Haha, indeed.

It's debateable whether changing the way you play is even a good idea when batting with the tail. Waugh and Kallis weren't exactly renowned accelerators, but it's a good skill to have for the Husseys, Flintoffs and Bouchers who can hit out in that situation. Then again, showing faith can often pay off- think of Duminy scoring 166 with the tail and imagine if he had tried to hit out when batting with Steyn and Harris.

You can't really label Kallis selfish in that situation either. He knows that as long as he stays in batting normally, any runs the tail score will count double. But if he goes after the bowlers and gets out, the innings is over. For all we know watching, he could be batting normally under his captain's instructions (Duminy was, he and Smith stated after that match).

 

[JBH001]

How many days left on the poll?

Still want to cast for Donald and Akram, but Hadlee with 24 and McGrath at 25 means I may hold back my vote yet.

What happens in the event of a tie? Do we have a quick run off vote like last time?

 

[archie mac]

It might sound ridiculous, but I regard Kallis to be on the same level as Sir Gary, if not better.

Yes

 

[Slifer]

I would rank Kallis slightly below Sobers personally

 

[bagapath]

How many days left on the poll?

Still want to cast for Donald and Akram, but Hadlee with 24 and McGrath at 25 means I may hold back my vote yet.

What happens in the event of a tie? Do we have a quick run off vote like last time?

i hope there is no tie... if so, i want to take both of them and place them in the 3rd and 4th bowler's poll along with runner up from the spinner's poll. we can select two to go with marshall, warne and possibly imran/botham/kapil

 

[Top_Cat]

How does one play for average while bowling?

For a while there, he was perceived as only really bending his back or bowling at all when it was tail-enders, Bangladeshi or Zimbabwean batsmen at the other end. Quite a good bowler when he puts in, though.