Terry Jenner on developing spinners

[Richard]

Well I've seen comparisons, several times, between Salisbury's Leg-Break and his Googly, and the arm certainly looks notably higher, so I don't think it's an illusion.

Is possible though, obviously. The last time I saw it was a good few years ago.

 

[neville cardus]

Yup, in Yorkshire until very recently no-one considered there was any need for wristspin. And they were right to do so until the 1970s - uncovered pitches and the prevailing weather in Yorkshire meant that fingerspin was simply better than wristspin, almost without qualification.
I'm sure someone, somewhere could give us most or all of those who fell in the famous line of Yorkshire left-arm fingerspinners, starting with Peate and most certainly including Wardle.

Actually, we could go back further than Peate and start with Ikey Hodgson, who takes comfortably the not-inconsiderable honour of being the worst batsman in the pantheon. The others, in roughly chronological order, are Bobby Peel, Wilfred Rhodes, Roy Kilner, Hedley Verity and, of course, Happy Go Johnny.*

* Is it true, Archie, that AA Thomson ghosted his autobiography?

 

[fredfertang]

.......... and Arthur Booth between Verity and Wardle?

AAT is openly credited on "Happy go Johnny"

"... J H Wardle as told to AA Thomson"

 

[neville cardus]

I don't think many people get that bit. A similar sentiment to what Richie Benaud always says: "learn to spin the ball a long way first, and worry about everything else later".

Arthur Mailey said something virtually identical. And it holds true: no leg-spinner worth his salt has ever been a mere roller.

 

[neville cardus]

.......... and Arthur Booth between Verity and Wardle?

For myself, I don't think Booth quite up to standard. Which is hardly a aspersion, given how lofty that standard is.

AAT is openly credited on "Happy go Johnny"
"... J H Wardle as told to AA Thomson"

Ah, good. Wish I could find it.

 

[Richard]

Arthur Mailey said something virtually identical. And it holds true: no leg-spinner worth his salt has ever been a mere roller.

No non-subcontinental one, surely? Anil Kumble is a mere roller and has been all career but the nature of many of his home pitches have suited that perfectly. Albeit Kumble was worth very little salt - or anything else - away from the subcon, for most of his career.

 

[neville cardus]

No non-subcontinental one, surely? Anil Kumble is a mere roller and has been all career but the nature of many of his home pitches have suited that perfectly. Albeit Kumble was worth very little salt - or anything else - away from the subcon, for most of his career.

This, I think, is easily the most annoying and fallacious perception about leg-spin bowling. That one does not rip the ball obliquely does not necessarily entail that one is not ripping it at all. Kumble had arguably the most viperous top-spinner in world cricket, and I am yet to encounter a top-spinner that is viperous when merely rolled.

Where Kumble fell short was not in rolling the ball but in failing to position his wrist adequately to facilitate side-spin. It had almost everything to do with his arm-and-body action, which resembled more the seamer's windmill than the wrist-spinner's oscillation. I would challenge anyone to bowl a genuine leggie with an action as high and as straight as his.

 

[Richard]

You're right, of course, that Kumble was far more about topspin than sidespin, but I generally found that even his topspin and Flipper wasn't of a particularly vicious nature. Otherwise he'd have found that steepling bounce on all surfaces, not just those receptive to spin.

 

[DingDong]

You're right, of course, that Kumble was far more about topspin than sidespin, but I generally found that even his topspin and Flipper wasn't of a particularly vicious nature. Otherwise he'd have found that steepling bounce on all surfaces, not just those receptive to spin.

Are you saying that by experience?

Gotta hand it to you Richie, you are the king of the arm-chair critics.

 

[Richard]

Are you saying that by experience?

It's called watching. Not a terribly difficult thing to do really.

 

[neville cardus]

Well I've seen comparisons, several times, between Salisbury's Leg-Break and his Googly, and the arm certainly looks notably higher, so I don't think it's an illusion.

It isn't. Most leg spinners are forced to raise the arm higher when bowling the wrong 'un. Salisbury's is pretty pronounced.

Incidentally, I've given a considerable deal of thought and net practice to the matter, and am proud to announce that I recently forged a bosie that can be executed effectively no matter what height the arm be. I'll put something up on YouTube shortly.

 

[neville cardus]

You're right, of course, that Kumble was far more about topspin than sidespin, but I generally found that even his topspin and Flipper wasn't of a particularly vicious nature. Otherwise he'd have found that steepling bounce on all surfaces, not just those receptive to spin.

On all surfaces? I don't think so. Not even Stuart MacGill, the most prodigious spinner of a cricket ball that I have ever seen, could turn it square on all wickets. Like Kumble's top-spinner, however, his legbreak always did more than most.

 

[Richard]

I'm struggling to think of a surface which denied MacGill the chance to turn it considerably TBH. And I'd agree with you fully that there's no spinner I've seen who I reckon puts more revs (side or top) on the ball.

 

[zaremba]

Where Kumble fell short was not in rolling the ball but in failing to position his wrist adequately to facilitate side-spin. It had almost everything to do with his arm-and-body action, which resembled more the seamer's windmill than the wrist-spinner's oscillation. I would challenge anyone to bowl a genuine leggie with an action as high and as straight as his.

The exception to this rule, I think, is Mushtaq Ahmed. His arm when bowling both googly and legspinner was (is?) so "high" as to be actually beyond the vertical. I'm not sure how he managed to bowl genuine legspinners as well as googlies with this action, but he certainly did. I imagine it may have something to do with his unusual "windmilling" action. It may also be related to his lack of height and therefore the trajectory of the ball after it left his hand.

 

[Rant0r]

i haven't heard it called a bosie in years

i've tried the mushtaq action before it's really quite effective, bit hard on the body though, you get a fair bit of overspin and bounce, and the legspinner and 'bosie' are from virtually the same arm position, plus it's a lot more front on than the classical legspinners action.

 

[Migara]

Arthur Mailey said something virtually identical. And it holds true: no leg-spinner worth his salt has ever been a mere roller.

Chandrashekar and Kumble have plenty to comment about that IMO

EDIT: saw the response on overspin, which I fully agree.