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Terry Jenner on developing spinners

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Although I tend to agree with you to a certain extent Richard I think you’re overstating your case rather – pre WW2 we had a long history of producing Test standard leg spinners in England – Tich Freeman, Dick Tyldesley, Walter Robins, Ian Peebles, Percy Fender, Len Wilkinson, Tom Mitchell, Jim Sims and Freddie Brown all had their moments between the wars and none, save possibly Mitchell, could be described as failures – even after the war Doug Wright and Roly Jenkins kept the breed alive and Peter Smith won selection too albeit he was not a success.
I confess I've not even heard of some of those names, and another (Fender) I've heard of only due to a rather famous innings with the bat of extraordinary speed and not due to his bowling. Those whose virtues as spinners I know something of extends only to Freeman, Robins and Peebles, and none exactly had what I'd call truly oustanding Test careers, hence my comment that England had never really had a wristspinner of any massive note.

And Freeman (I'd heard about him, though not Tydlsley) as you note lower down this thread was probably a bowler more akin to Anil Kumble than Shane Warne or even to Clarrie Grimmett or Arthur Mailey. I've noted many times that I dread to think how deadly Kumble might've been on uncovered wickets in a less-than-outstanding summer, never mind a damp one, and maybe in Freeman we have something of a suggestion at the answer. But Freeman was not the type of bowler you could expect to travel well, rather as Kumble for so much of his career wasn't.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That's a very good article, and you make a very relevant point.

I would say, though, that wrist spinners as attacking bowlers still have a place in Test cricket. Stuart Macgill, for example, even at his best, bowled a half-tracker every couple of overs.

What is so once-in-a-lifetime about Warne and Murali is that they spin the ball hard on any track AND are accurate enough to strangle batsmen with their economy rate. Most mortal spinners can only hope for one or the other. And in this age of the IPL, most are going to choose to be economical, ODI-type bowlers, rather than the Test craftsmen who are such a joy to watch.
Yup, since covering of wickets a vast amount of spin has become neccessary to have widespread success, and controlling such large amounts of spin has always been and will always be incredibly difficult.

Someone like MacGill, whose virtues as a Test bowler I've always maintained are horribly overstated but who was nonetheless clearly above the norm as wristspinners go (well clear of a Cullen Bailey or Mark Lawson for example), was very unusual. There are precious few wristspinners whose control is relatively poor, but not poor enough to make them a complete joke (and of course to hinder their ability to bowl wicket-taking balls at all - the more accurate you are, the better your chances of bowling the things).

You see MacGills not that much more often than you see Warnes and Muralis. While you'll get one of the latter in several generations, it won't be unusual for a considerable length of time to go by without one of the former as well.
 

Chimpdaddy

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Bowling wrist spin is an art. And it takes quite a while, and a number of horrible matches to develop into a good spin bowler. I think many youngsters don't end up sticking with spin bowling after getting tonked around.
Futhermore, as Jenner said, players want to play all forms of the game. This includes 20/20 where the aim is for bowlers is to be as economical as possible. This means more accuracy, and darting the ball in.
I honestly believe, since our pace resources are much higher, we should work on getting a very strong pace line-up before even considering about carrying a specialist spinner in the side.
Nevertheless, the fact remains, we will won't see another Warne in a long time.

-Chimpdaddy-
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
i'd be happy with another macgill 200 odd wickets at under 30 and a strike rate in the 50's thankyou very much
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bowling wrist spin is an art. And it takes quite a while, and a number of horrible matches to develop into a good spin bowler. I think many youngsters don't end up sticking with spin bowling after getting tonked around.
That and also the fact that for about 99% of people (probably far more but I CBA estimating the number of decimal-places I'd need for the right sort of estimate) wouldn't have a cat-in-hell's chance of developing the requistite accuracy if they bowled wristspin with assiduous practice for 40 years.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
i'd be happy with another macgill 200 odd wickets at under 30 and a strike rate in the 50's thankyou very much
The thing is that MacGill's record a) wasn't that good in genuine Tests (was inflated hugely by Bangladesh and ICC World XIs) and b) actually only consisted of a very small number of good games with lots of very poor ones.

That said, yes, MacGill circa '99 or '02 would probably be a worthwhile addition to Australia's attack currently, but say Clark returns, Hilfenhaus comes in and takes like a duck to water, and in a year or two's time Siddle and Johnson\Bollinger are Test-class bowlers, he wouldn't be.
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
they seem intent on a spinner though, i think because they have been shown to be completely incapable of bowling 15 overs an hour, i personally would go with a pace battery and some part time spin.

macgill's was better than you give him credit for, not a warne, but would walk into almost any other international team during his peak.
 

Chimpdaddy

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
they seem intent on a spinner though, i think because they have been shown to be completely incapable of bowling 15 overs an hour, i personally would go with a pace battery and some part time spin.

macgill's was better than you give him credit for, not a warne, but would walk into almost any other international team during his peak.
So because of the teams inability to bowl a reasonable 15 overs in a hour with decent pace bowlers, we have to select a spinner who is not ready for the international scene? It is the job of the captain with support from his team to be able to bowl the required number of overs, and if you can't do that, then it is poor form from both parties.
Look at South Africa - they play with 4 quicks and manage to get through their overs. And if there are problems, chuck the ball to Clarke or Katich for a quick few overs to add variation and speed things along.

-Chimpdaddy-
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
So because of the teams inability to bowl a reasonable 15 overs in a hour with decent pace bowlers, we have to select a spinner who is not ready for the international scene? It is the job of the captain with support from his team to be able to bowl the required number of overs, and if you can't do that, then it is poor form from both parties.
Look at South Africa - they play with 4 quicks and manage to get through their overs. And if there are problems, chuck the ball to Clarke or Katich for a quick few overs to add variation and speed things along.

-Chimpdaddy-[/QUOTE

i never said such a thing, i feel australia should pick their best bowlers and best batsmen, and simply get off their arses and bowl 15 overs an hour, if the best bowlers are 4 pacemen and the best batsmen are 6 specialists then so be it, there is part time spin available to break it up.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
they seem intent on a spinner though, i think because they have been shown to be completely incapable of bowling 15 overs an hour, i personally would go with a pace battery and some part time spin.
The inability to bowl 15 overs per hour has come with one, sometimes two, spinners in the side. It's not to do with lack of spinners but neglect of the basic quantity of urgency.
macgill's was better than you give him credit for, not a warne, but would walk into almost any other international team during his peak.
Not really. MacGill was someone who'd have the odd really good game then 4 or 5 bad ones.
 

Uppercut

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MacGill was incredible at cleaning up tails. Australia would have killed for him on the third day at Melbourne.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
I confess I've not even heard of some of those names, and another (Fender) I've heard of only due to a rather famous innings with the bat of extraordinary speed and not due to his bowling. Those whose virtues as spinners I know something of extends only to Freeman, Robins and Peebles, and none exactly had what I'd call truly oustanding Test careers, hence my comment that England had never really had a wristspinner of any massive note.
Jonny Wardle comes to mind - but I'm not sure how his record bowling wristspin compared with his record bowling fingerspin.

Good quality thread this, btw
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
MacGill was incredible at cleaning up tails. Australia would have killed for him on the third day at Melbourne.
Yes he was a classic legspinner - a little unreliable, and gave some runs away, but turned the ball a ridiculous distance and took lots of wickets. England would have killed to have had him for the last 10 years.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Jonny Wardle comes to mind - but I'm not sure how his record bowling wristspin compared with his record bowling fingerspin.
Yeah, have never completely understood exactly what it was he did - whether he had spells bowling wrist, spells bowling finger, or whether he just chucked some wristspin in when required as a change-up.

Either way, I've always been under the impression that fingerspin was his primary style.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, have never completely understood exactly what it was he did - whether he had spells bowling wrist, spells bowling finger, or whether he just chucked some wristspin in when required as a change-up.

Either way, I've always been under the impression that fingerspin was his primary style.
In Wardle's day wrist spin was frowned upon in the Broadacres so he had to experiment with it in Test Matches - he ripped through the South Africans with it a la Syd Barnes in 56/57 but that apart my understanding has always been as Richards

.... except during the Scarborough festival of course - he was allowed to do as he pleased then
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
In Wardle's day wrist spin was frowned upon in the Broadacres so he had to experiment with it in Test Matches - he ripped through the South Africans with it a la Syd Barnes in 56/57 but that apart my understanding has always been as Richards

.... except during the Scarborough festival of course - he was allowed to do as he pleased then
Yup, in Yorkshire until very recently no-one considered there was any need for wristspin. And they were right to do so until the 1970s - uncovered pitches and the prevailing weather in Yorkshire meant that fingerspin was simply better than wristspin, almost without qualification.

I'm sure someone, somewhere could give us most or all of those who fell in the famous line of Yorkshire left-arm fingerspinners, starting with Peate and most certainly including Wardle.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
MacGilla would have just bowled him through the gate with that lethal wrong'un of his...:ph34r:
Haddin would probably have found a way to knock the bails off before the ball hit the stumps, or MacGill would've managed to overstep. It seemed Steyn was going to get let-offs regardless on that day.
 

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