Courtney Walsh: underrated great, all-time bowler?

Days of Grace · 15-12-2008, 12:23 AM

I have been working on another version of my ratings for test batsmen and bowlers since August. The most comprehensive yet, featuring a lot more criteria.

One thing that surprised me was that Courtney Walsh, so often forgotten, stands up against the best fast bowlers in all departments, whether that be overall average, away average, average vs. top opposition. And what astounded me was that his peak years were in his last 50 or so tests.

I think he is underrated by this forum and he would deserve a place in the alltime test bowlers top 20 imho.

Thoughts?

Goughy · 15-12-2008, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Days of Grace

Courtney Walsh, so often forgotten, stands up against the best fast bowlers in all departments,

He doesnt match the best in wickets per game. He is under 4 (just).

IMO, very good bowlers can average under 4 wickets a Test but to be considered an alltime great then 4 is the MIN cut off.

Walsh was a quality bowler but not a legend of the game apart from his longevity.

Xuhaib · 15-12-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goughy

He doesnt match the best in wickets per game. He is under 4 (just).

IMO, very good bowlers can average under 4 wickets a Test but to be considered an alltime great then 4 is the MIN cut off.

Walsh was a quality bowler but not a legend of the game apart from his longevity.

Wasim averages less then 4 while Kaneria averages over 4.

roseboy64 · 15-12-2008, 12:51 AM

Kaneria greater than Wasim? Itstl. That's a problem you get when you just have have an arbitrary criterion. Quite a lot of players will meet it but then there'll be some who don't and just completely ruin that argument. Best to use a wide range of criteria to judge careers IMO.

Zinzan · 15-12-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goughy

He doesnt match the best in wickets per game. He is under 4 (just).

IMO, very good bowlers can average under 4 wickets a Test but to be considered an alltime great then 4 is the MIN cut off.

Walsh was a quality bowler but not a legend of the game apart from his longevity.

Surely the situation with Walsh was different than the likes of Murali or Hadlee, who essentially carried their respective teams most of their careers. Slightly tougher for Walsh to have a high wickets/match tally considering he played pretty much the first half of his career as part of one of the strongest quartets of bowlers in the history of test cricket.

Goughy · 15-12-2008, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

Wasim averages less then 4.

Yes I know

archie mac · 15-12-2008, 01:18 AM

Quality bowler, but not an all-time great

Days of Grace · 15-12-2008, 01:30 AM

Would you call Wasim an alltime great?

Zinzan · 15-12-2008, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archie mac

Quality bowler, but not an all-time great

I'd agree with that despite my argument above for his lower wickets/tests ratio.

Goughy · 15-12-2008, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Days of Grace

Would you call Wasim an alltime great?

In the oft used sense of the phrase then he is. He accomplished so much. However, he isnt in the elite level bowlers to have ever played the game and his name would never be close to mentioned in the discussion of best seam bowlers ever.

Goughy · 15-12-2008, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Days of Grace

I think he is underrated by this forum and he would deserve a place in the alltime test bowlers top 20 imho.

The thing is that he probably places no higher then 7th (and possibly even lower) on the post war WI list.

Richard · 15-12-2008, 03:17 AM

Walsh < Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Bishop, Hall and it's possible that had Daniel and even Clarke had the careers they might've done they'd have been better to boot.

Nonetheless, of course, Walsh was a brilliant bowler over a long, long time.

archie mac · 15-12-2008, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Days of Grace

Would you call Wasim an alltime great?

Yes

krkode · 15-12-2008, 04:25 AM

As has been mentioned, I don't think Walsh is as good as many of his peers, but he had admirable qualities in his own right. For one, the sheer length of his career was quite impressive. And he basically carried the West Indies bowling for the last 2-ish years of his career.

masterblaster · 15-12-2008, 04:29 AM

The West Indies could use a player like him now, that's for sure.

15-12-2008, 12:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
Days of Grace International Regular Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Takasaki, Japan Posts: 3,852	Courtney Walsh: underrated great, all-time bowler? I have been working on another version of my ratings for test batsmen and bowlers since August. The most comprehensive yet, featuring a lot more criteria. One thing that surprised me was that Courtney Walsh, so often forgotten, stands up against the best fast bowlers in all departments, whether that be overall average, away average, average vs. top opposition. And what astounded me was that his peak years were in his last 50 or so tests. I think he is underrated by this forum and he would deserve a place in the alltime test bowlers top 20 imho. Thoughts? __________________ Greatest Ever Test XI (according to my ratings): Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman (c), Headley, Lara, Sobers, Gilchrist (wk), Hadlee, Marshall, Steyn, Muralitharan 12th man: Imran Khan Favorite XI: Grace (c), Trumper, Richards, Lara, Compton, Gilchrist (wk), Cairns, Jessop, Warne, Bond, Trueman

15-12-2008, 12:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
roseboy64 Cricket Web Content Updater Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Jamaica Posts: 18,549	Kaneria greater than Wasim? Itstl. That's a problem you get when you just have have an arbitrary criterion. Quite a lot of players will meet it but then there'll be some who don't and just completely ruin that argument. Best to use a wide range of criteria to judge careers IMO. __________________ Sir Alexander Chapman Ferguson = Greatest Ever Manager "One from ten leaves zero." - Eric Williams, former T&T PM Member of Cricket Web Green Member of Northside Power R.I.P Fardin Qayyumi

15-12-2008, 01:18 AM	#7 (permalink)
archie mac Cricket Web Staff Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: canberra Australia Posts: 10,668	Quality bowler, but not an all-time great __________________ You know it makes sense.

15-12-2008, 04:29 AM	#15 (permalink)
masterblaster International Captain Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 6,065	The West Indies could use a player like him now, that's for sure. __________________ Self Elected Vice-President of AAAS (Ajit Agarkar Appreciation Society) "Uniting Ajit Agarkar Fans World Wide" Always Live Life With: Intensity, Integrity and Intelligence

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15-12-2008, 01:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
Days of Grace International Regular Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Takasaki, Japan Posts: 3,852	Would you call Wasim an alltime great?

15-12-2008, 04:25 AM	#14 (permalink)
krkode State Captain Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,781	As has been mentioned, I don't think Walsh is as good as many of his peers, but he had admirable qualities in his own right. For one, the sheer length of his career was quite impressive. And he basically carried the West Indies bowling for the last 2-ish years of his career.

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