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Courtney Walsh: underrated great, all-time bowler?

BoyBrumby

Englishman
The thing is that he probably places no higher then 7th (and possibly even lower) on the post war WI list.
Quite, but given the surfeit of quality Windies pacemen in that 60+ year sample even making the top ten is no mean effort. If Courtney had been (say) Indian, Sri Lankan or a kiwi he'd be absolutely nailed on for a spot in their all-time XI. He'd probably even be challenging for a spot in the post-war England XI too. FST would certainly rank above him, but he isn't embarrassed by the comparsion with Bedser, Statham, Snow, Willis, Both, etc.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Quite, but given the surfeit of quality Windies pacemen in that 60+ year sample even making the top ten is no mean effort. If Courtney had been (say) Indian, Sri Lankan or a kiwi he'd be absolutely nailed on for a spot in their all-time XI. He'd probably even be challenging for a spot in the post-war England XI too. FST would certainly rank above him, but he isn't embarrassed by the comparsion with Bedser, Statham, Snow, Willis, Both, etc.
He would certainly be in the hunt for a place in an English post war XI (if he was English obv). Id have him over Willis (no disrespect to Willis there), though behind Snow.

I still think top 20 is an ambitious claim though I have not investigated it or made a list.
 
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Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
As if it matters, he is an all time great for me. You cannot merely disregard the longevity as 'mere longevity', he kept going and was a star for all those many years and those 519 wickets.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Wonder whatever happened to Mervyn Dillon and Reon King... Neither of them at the Ambrose/Walsh level but they seemed like Walsh's natural successors at the time and were quite decent if I remember...
King had his chances wrecked by injury, Camps'll tell you that any time. Dillon, well, I never really thought he was that good (better than Franklyn Rose and Marlon Black mind) and always much more liked the look of Nixon McLean.

Sadly, McLean like Dillon failed to produce anything much at the Test level.
 

JBH001

International Regular
He doesnt match the best in wickets per game. He is under 4 (just).

IMO, very good bowlers can average under 4 wickets a Test but to be considered an alltime great then 4 is the MIN cut off.

Walsh was a quality bowler but not a legend of the game apart from his longevity.
Maybe, but Courtney was a stock bowler for the first half of his career. IIRC he had 170 wickets in his first 50 tests, and then as greater responsibility was placed on him with the retirements of players like Marshall, and injuries to players like Bishop, he simply got better and better with age.

In any case, Ray Lindwall has 228 wickets in 61 tests (iirc). :)

IMO, Walsh is under-rated not just for his bowling skills but also for his tremendous stamina and longevity. I consider him an all-time great.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
He would certainly be in the hunt for a place in an English post war XI (if he was English obv). Id have him over Willis (no disrespect to Willis there), though behind Snow.

I still think top 20 is an ambitious claim though I have not investigated it or made a list.
To throw in a few obvious stand-out names to show that it's not at all outrageous to leave him out of a top-20...

Marshall, Hadlee, Imran Khan, Lillee, Donald, Wasim Akram, Ambrose, McGrath, Shaun Pollock, Bishop, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Hall, Adcock, Davidson, Statham, Trueman, Miller, Lindwall. One could also make cases for Alec Bedser, Fazal Mahmood, Peter Pollock, John Snow, Waqar Younis and possibly Jason Gillespie.

There are also others from the 1900s, 1910s and 1920s (possibly not 1930s) who may have a case but whose cases I'm not familiar enough with to make much of a claim about.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
To throw in a few obvious stand-out names to show that it's not at all outrageous to leave him out of a top-20...

Marshall, Hadlee, Imran Khan, Lillee, Donald, Wasim Akram, Ambrose, McGrath, Shaun Pollock, Bishop, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Hall, Adcock, Davidson, Statham, Trueman, Miller, Lindwall. One could also make cases for Alec Bedser, Fazal Mahmood, Peter Pollock, John Snow, Waqar Younis and possibly Jason Gillespie.

There are also others from the 1900s, 1910s and 1920s (possibly not 1930s) who may have a case but whose cases I'm not familiar enough with to make much of a claim about.
Remembering the original claim was as a top 20 alltime Test bowler. This is how Ive grouped your post war seamers from above.

Bold = Above Walsh
Italics = Comparable to, Could go either way
Underline = Walsh has more to offer

I have 14 clearly ranked higher and roughly 9 comparable that could go either way.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
He was a brilliant bowler who I probably do rate a little worse than his records suggest.

The All Time Great debate depends on how many players you are including obviously.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
In the oft used sense of the phrase then he is. He accomplished so much. However, he isnt in the elite level bowlers to have ever played the game and his name would never be close to mentioned in the discussion of best seam bowlers ever.
If that is only your opinion, I am okay with it, but when say "would never be close to mentioned in the discussion of best seam bowlers" , you seem to be speaking as if that is some kind of fact.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
I make a distinction between worldclass and all-time great. Worldclass means you are of the best of your time, and could walk into any team in the era you play. All-time great means that you transcend this due to your achievements or stature and could be considered for an all-time XI of all eras, a very exclusive group. I would consider Walsh the former, but not the latter, there were a host of other West Indian bowlers better than him.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That bunch of yokels still think David Lawrence and Mike Smith were Test bowlers.
At least in Smith's case there can justifiably be the claim he got an extremely raw deal, even if he was exceptionally unlikely to have been Test-class.

He was certainly a hell of a lot more likely than Joseph Benjamin or Martin McCague were. Or Chris Schofield or Liam Plunkett, for that matter.
 

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