Players who can't be dropped in test matches

[James]

You'd want to put an extra bowler into the weakest batting team in the world?

We did that today in playing O'Brien, Franklin, Gillespie and Mills.

Mills was selected instead of the injured Oram right?

 

[inbox24]

Mitchell Johnson lawl.

Come hell or high water he will be in the Aussie team till death do us part.

 

[James]

Yeah, tried to disguise it as a meaningful thread with the first post and I honestly just would have let it slide if it was just that. Once no-one took the bait and actually started talking about other players, though, Leslie posted the anti-Vettori stuff once again to get everyone on track...

I do think Vettori the bowler the over-rated a tad but if you have a look at the lengths other countries have gone to recently to have a spinner in their team basically for the sake of it (Robin Petersen and Cameron White being the ultimate examples here), Vettori's a pretty damn useful cricketer to have. There's no actual doubt that he's the best spinner available in there? If the argument is that New Zealand would be better off without a spinner I can see the point to some extent but people don't actually think Patel or Martin are better, do they?

This whole thing ignores the fact that his statistical contributions over the last three years would almost certainly see him picked as a specialist batsman if need by anyway. If you're going say "substance over style" and argue that he isn't effective with the ball despite how he looks, you equally have to recognise the fact that while he doesn't look great with the bat, he actually has much more right to selection as a batsman alone than someone like Flynn or Ryder based on what he's achieved in the last three years.



"Leslie1's Anti-Vettori Propaganda" sounds a fitting title.

Tend to agree with you.

These two graphs on our very own Stats Spider back you up some what when compared with others.

Bowling Average By Year
http://www.cricketweb.net/statsspider/player/graph/686460-Test-16.php

Batting Average by Year
http://www.cricketweb.net/statsspider/player/graph/686460-Test-5.php

 

[Craig]

 

[Uppercut]

You'd want to put an extra bowler into the weakest batting team in the world?

Depends who's available. Their bowling's not too hot either (although Southee should surely not have been dropped for Gillespie). How comfortable are you with Ryder as the fifth option? On pitches that won't take turn you're essentially playing Vettori as an all-rounder, why not bat him in an all-rounder position? He gets far too many not-outs for such a capable batsman, and the reluctance to move is probably a mental thing. What i was saying is that if he wasn't the captain, star player and senior player of the team, he'd probably have been moved up the order already.

 

[Leslie1]

Interesting thoughts guys. I am an unashamedly Vets basher whenever I get the chance. :P

But this thread is actually about this...

Having read the Kallis' articles posted elsewhere, this is an interesting query (not sure if this has been brought up before, I'm sure it has) ....


Name cricketers in cricket sides around the world, who looks absolutely like a god when the team he's in is poor in general (form or class), but then turn around and look like tripe when everybody else plays well... hence a footnote.

Kallis is going through this phase, trying to find a way to fit himself into a team that's batting well, bowling well, and yet because he's so used to saving his country's bacon when he started, this new period of SA dominance meant that he's often getting most of the slack from his countrymen.

Dravid is another case. When his side is not doing so well in a match, count on him to stand out like a beacon, but when his side is playing well, he's criticised as not having enough form.

At this early stage, I'd even put Flynn in right now, he's standing out like a mainstay of the Black Caps when everybody falls apart around him. I am a fan of his already, but when the Jesses and the Taylors start playing with more temperament and peak, I can see him walking the same path as the above 2 great players (with less quality ahem).

Nutshell: Players who play well when their team is playing like poo, and then when his teammates start performing, he starts to get a lot of criticism coming his way.

 

[Jigga988]

Depends who's available. Their bowling's not too hot either (although Southee should surely not have been dropped for Gillespie). How comfortable are you with Ryder as the fifth option? On pitches that won't take turn you're essentially playing Vettori as an all-rounder, why not bat him in an all-rounder position? He gets far too many not-outs for such a capable batsman, and the reluctance to move is probably a mental thing. What i was saying is that if he wasn't the captain, star player and senior player of the team, he'd probably have been moved up the order already.

There was similar speak going on about Broad after he had made a couple half-centuries against Seth Efrica and this try and made him bat more like a test player and thus saw his scores decrease. i believe 8 is the right position for these guys, i dont think Vettel is better than Oram, or probobly even Franklin; he is just made to look good by extremely attacking fields when he first comes out, similarly to Broad and is more at home and more comfertable with the position 8.

Also, Vettel's batting game is slightly one-dimmensional and he will get figured out sooner or later, if he bats higher up. Also, NZ will depend on Vettel even more. How much weight can one man hold on his shoulders???

 

[Richard]

Oram's certainly a better batsman than Vettori for my money, but not Franklin. Vettori-Franklin would possibly be the strongest eight-nine in Test history (and yes, I agree that I'd want neither of them any higher) but I'd have them in that order, not the other way around.

 

[analyst]

Interesting thoughts guys. I am an unashamedly Vets basher whenever I get the chance. :P

But this thread is actually about this...

Having read the Kallis' articles posted elsewhere, this is an interesting query (not sure if this has been brought up before, I'm sure it has) ....


Name cricketers in cricket sides around the world, who looks absolutely like a god when the team he's in is poor in general (form or class), but then turn around and look like tripe when everybody else plays well... hence a footnote.

Kallis is going through this phase, trying to find a way to fit himself into a team that's batting well, bowling well, and yet because he's so used to saving his country's bacon when he started, this new period of SA dominance meant that he's often getting most of the slack from his countrymen.

Dravid is another case. When his side is not doing so well in a match, count on him to stand out like a beacon, but when his side is playing well, he's criticised as not having enough form.

At this early stage, I'd even put Flynn in right now, he's standing out like a mainstay of the Black Caps when everybody falls apart around him. I am a fan of his already, but when the Jesses and the Taylors start playing with more temperament and peak, I can see him walking the same path as the above 2 great players (with less quality ahem).

Nutshell: Players who play well when their team is playing like poo, and then when his teammates start performing, he starts to get a lot of criticism coming his way.

Its easy to talk about those players purely based on lack of current abilty but the fact is, if they don't move on soon, the younger generation will have moved on and there won't be any replacements to step in when they retire. That is the real problem that teams face when replacing great players, I doubt media really intend on criticising great players, its more a scenario that having a subjective opinion on these issues creates more opinions for the public which is clearly the case.

 

[Flem274*]

Oram's certainly a better batsman than Vettori for my money, but not Franklin. Vettori-Franklin would possibly be the strongest eight-nine in Test history (and yes, I agree that I'd want neither of them any higher) but I'd have them in that order, not the other way around.

Jimmy is capable of alot more with the bat at test level. Has more FC double centuries than Taylor.

I wouldn't want Jimmy in the top 5, but 6 downwards (when Oram trips over a cordless phone ahahahaha) I'm fine with it.

 

[Furball]

There was similar speak going on about Broad after he had made a couple half-centuries against Seth Efrica and this try and made him bat more like a test player and thus saw his scores decrease. i believe 8 is the right position for these guys, i dont think Vettel is better than Oram, or probobly even Franklin; he is just made to look good by extremely attacking fields when he first comes out, similarly to Broad and is more at home and more comfertable with the position 8.

Also, Vettel's batting game is slightly one-dimmensional and he will get figured out sooner or later, if he bats higher up. Also, NZ will depend on Vettel even more. How much weight can one man hold on his shoulders???

This Vettel?

 

[HMas]

Mohd Yousuf

 

[Athlai]

We did that today in playing O'Brien, Franklin, Gillespie and Mills.

Mills was selected instead of the injured Oram right?

Franklin and Mills tend to make up for that, but Franklin has only just come back.

 

[bryce]

Shoaib Malik would be in the closest mould i'd say, more effective with the bat and less effective with the ball in comparison with Vettori

 

[Arjun]

Any Indian batsman batting at six in Tests (since Ganguly's retirement) or at six/seven in ODIs is no more than a footnote. Starting with Yuvraj Singh and Rohit Sharma.

 

[Jigga988]

This Vettel?

your attempt to try and follow up on the 'elk' joke was poor and not very funny at all

 

[Matt79]

Oram's certainly a better batsman than Vettori for my money, but not Franklin. Vettori-Franklin would possibly be the strongest eight-nine in Test history (and yes, I agree that I'd want neither of them any higher) but I'd have them in that order, not the other way around.

Did Benaud and Davidson ever play together at 8-9?

EDIT: Hmmm, they batted 7-8 in the tied test, looks like they normally went in ahead of Grout

 

[Prince EWS]

Oram's certainly a better batsman than Vettori for my money, but not Franklin. Vettori-Franklin would possibly be the strongest eight-nine in Test history (and yes, I agree that I'd want neither of them any higher) but I'd have them in that order, not the other way around.

Franklin's better than what he's shown at Test level. I think he's a number eight, personally. He could handle seven with an experienced and reliable top order at a pinch as well.