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Chanderpaul or Dravid?

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hardly pointless and I still don't think its so clear cut. Chanderpaul since England's last tour to the Windies has been on a steady rise in both ODI's and Tests and is one of the few players in world cricket to have such good statistics for 4 years running. Its amazing people forget that its not just the last two years but its four years that this has been happening, immediately after the test series was done against England, he came to form in the ODI's after not playing in the final test vs England citing exhaustion. He came back in prime form with only his captaincy halting his progress.
Even so, Dravid was until mid-2006 every bit as good if not better - and had been massively better for the 6 or 7 previous years (starting from 1996). There is absolutely no way Chanderpaul is ever remotely likely to be as good as Dravid in my book, though make no mistake, Chanderpaul is a damn fine batsman.
I predict Chanderpaul will gradually rise as the years go by and leave his mark as one of the batsmen of this generation. There are not many defensive batsmen in the game and certianly not batsmen with the concentration to change focus from defense to attack and vice versa. Hence I think he is in the right frame of mind. I cannot see a decline at this stage.
I can. In fact I'd be surprised if Chanderpaul doesn't regress to "normal" sometime very soon. He's into his mid-30s now - most batsmen who've been managing insane scoring start to come back to "normal" around that sort of age - see Ricky Ponting, for example. Thinking that someone is going to keep scoring at 33-34+ as they were at 29-30-31 is unrealistic in the extreme. It will, very occasionally, happen (Graham Gooch was at his best from the age of 36 to 41 for example) but those cases are exactly that - occasional. To expect it... well, as I say, you're going to be disappointed very often.
 

analyst

U19 12th Man
Even so, Dravid was until mid-2006 every bit as good if not better - and had been massively better for the 6 or 7 previous years (starting from 1996). There is absolutely no way Chanderpaul is ever remotely likely to be as good as Dravid in my book, though make no mistake, Chanderpaul is a damn fine batsman.

I can. In fact I'd be surprised if Chanderpaul doesn't regress to "normal" sometime very soon. He's into his mid-30s now - most batsmen who've been managing insane scoring start to come back to "normal" around that sort of age - see Ricky Ponting, for example. Thinking that someone is going to keep scoring at 33-34+ as they were at 29-30-31 is unrealistic in the extreme. It will, very occasionally, happen (Graham Gooch was at his best from the age of 36 to 41 for example) but those cases are exactly that - occasional. To expect it... well, as I say, you're going to be disappointed very often.
1996 is an exageration, He did not really establish himself since 2001, he was not really an established test cricketer till 2001. 2001-2006 was his golden period and he faded out since then, I will give you that. My argument is that Chanderpaul will sustain his golden period 2004-2008 a little longer because he doesn't fight so many battles as Dravid what with the demmand from the public and his own demmands of himself where as Chanders appears to be a relatively calm customer who knows how to deal with situations and deals with each situation accordingly and doesn't take failure to heart and infact improvises and makes the most of the next opportunity.

Chanderpaul also has done something which Dravid never did, that is to emerge more or less emerge as the lone savior of the team and that is a burden Dravid never had to carry. Chanderpaul has done this admirably with a great deal of success.
 

DingDong

State Captain
I can. In fact I'd be surprised if Chanderpaul doesn't regress to "normal" sometime very soon.
:) :) :)

When do you think this is going to happen? Give me some sort of time frame. Anybody can make these kind of vague stupid 'predictions'. Of course he is going to decline as he gets older. Nobody would expect him to bat like this when he in his 40s.

I predict all batsman in a 'peak' right now will regress to "normal" as they get older.

Infact, I predict all good things will eventually come to an end.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
1996 is an exageration, He did not really establish himself since 2001, he was not really an established test cricketer till 2001.
WHAT?! You ARE kidding? Dravid between 1996 and 2001 (ie, England tour to Sri Lanka tour) averaged 53.56 in 47 Tests (1 against Bangladesh excluded). He actually started 2001/02 (the time when several other batsmen, like Ponting and Kallis, begun to gorge themselves silly) poorly, averaging less than 30 in his first 6 games (though 35 when not opening). But between the West Indies tours of 2002 and 2006, he was beyond superlative, averaging just a fraction under 70 as non-opener and even 66 in his unfavoured opening slot.

Dravid 1996 to 2001 was waaaaaaay above anything Chanderpaul achieved 1994 to 2001. Chanderpaul's first 49 Tests up to 2001 brought him an average of a fraction under 40 - Test-class, sure, good player, sure, but no hint of the sort of scoring he was going to display later. However, after a couple of iffy Tests in 2001/02, same as Dravid, he like Dravid started to score prolifically in the WI-Ind series in 2002. Since then, he's averaged 60 in 55 games against Test-standard sides.

As I say, Dravid >>>> Chanderpaul 1994(\1996) to 2001. Dravid > Chanderpaul 2002 to 2006. And Chanderpaul >>> Dravid 2006/07 to the current time. That's 10 years of Dravid being better (notably better for 6 of them) and 2 of Chanderpaul being notably better. Nothing will ever erase that and it's exceptionally unlikely anything will happen from now to redress that balance.
2001-2006 was his golden period and he faded out since then, I will give you that. My argument is that Chanderpaul will sustain his golden period 2004-2008 a little longer because he doesn't fight so many battles as Dravid what with the demmand from the public and his own demmands of himself where as Chanders appears to be a relatively calm customer who knows how to deal with situations and deals with each situation accordingly and doesn't take failure to heart and infact improvises and makes the most of the next opportunity.
I don't think Chanderpaul's mental capacity is really the important thing. What generally starts to decline in batsmen around the age of 34-35 is physical capability, not mental. There's precious little you can do to arrest such a decline - though the odd person, like Graham Gooch, is simply lucky and the normal is reversed.

I don't think it's remotely likely that Chanderpaul will continue to average 60 (as he has since 2002) for much longer, if any longer at all. There's a tiny outside chance he might, of course, because there always is, there are exceptions to every rule. But I'm expecting Chanderpaul to perform a much more moderate role for the next... well, however long until he decides to retire. If he averages, say, 43 for the next 3 years, he'll have done damn well - far better than any ordinary batsman would be able to do to the age of 37-38. Of course, he might decide to retire sooner - he has been playing international cricket since he was 18 and there comes a time when almost everyone wants a change of scenary. The Chanderpaul story from here has precious few certainties.
Chanderpaul also has done something which Dravid never did, that is to emerge more or less emerge as the lone savior of the team and that is a burden Dravid never had to carry. Chanderpaul has done this admirably with a great deal of success.
Believe it or not, some people actually consider this a negative, not a positive, on Chanderpaul. That people know they don't really need to try to get him out as they can just chip away at the other end. Me, I consider it works both ways equally. Like being a lone-hand bowler and bowler in a pack of excellence, being a lone-hand batsman and having a powerful line-up around you both have their advantages and disadvantages. And IMO, they cancel each-other out.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
:) :) :)

When do you think this is going to happen? Give me some sort of time frame. Anybody can make these kind of vague stupid 'predictions'. Of course he is going to decline as he gets older. Nobody would expect him to bat like this when he in his 40s.

I predict all batsman in a 'peak' right now will regress to "normal" as they get older.

Infact, I predict all good things will eventually come to an end.
Good obs Einstein. Did I not fairly obviously say "fairly soon"? IE, probably within a year or two.

BTW, Shahid Afridi's decline lasted his whole career.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Richard, well summarised about Dravid's career there. I think he was very much capable as test player since his debut, while he cemented his ODI status only after the impeccable form in 99 WC.
 

analyst

U19 12th Man
WHAT?! You ARE kidding? Dravid between 1996 and 2001 (ie, England tour to Sri Lanka tour) averaged 53.56 in 47 Tests (1 against Bangladesh excluded). He actually started 2001/02 (the time when several other batsmen, like Ponting and Kallis, begun to gorge themselves silly) poorly, averaging less than 30 in his first 6 games (though 35 when not opening). But between the West Indies tours of 2002 and 2006, he was beyond superlative, averaging just a fraction under 70 as non-opener and even 66 in his unfavoured opening slot.

Dravid 1996 to 2001 was waaaaaaay above anything Chanderpaul achieved 1994 to 2001. Chanderpaul's first 49 Tests up to 2001 brought him an average of a fraction under 40 - Test-class, sure, good player, sure, but no hint of the sort of scoring he was going to display later. However, after a couple of iffy Tests in 2001/02, same as Dravid, he like Dravid started to score prolifically in the WI-Ind series in 2002. Since then, he's averaged 60 in 55 games against Test-standard sides.

As I say, Dravid >>>> Chanderpaul 1994(\1996) to 2001. Dravid > Chanderpaul 2002 to 2006. And Chanderpaul >>> Dravid 2006/07 to the current time. That's 10 years of Dravid being better (notably better for 6 of them) and 2 of Chanderpaul being notably better. Nothing will ever erase that and it's exceptionally unlikely anything will happen from now to redress that balance.

I don't think Chanderpaul's mental capacity is really the important thing. What generally starts to decline in batsmen around the age of 34-35 is physical capability, not mental. There's precious little you can do to arrest such a decline - though the odd person, like Graham Gooch, is simply lucky and the normal is reversed.

I don't think it's remotely likely that Chanderpaul will continue to average 60 (as he has since 2002) for much longer, if any longer at all. There's a tiny outside chance he might, of course, because there always is, there are exceptions to every rule. But I'm expecting Chanderpaul to perform a much more moderate role for the next... well, however long until he decides to retire. If he averages, say, 43 for the next 3 years, he'll have done damn well - far better than any ordinary batsman would be able to do to the age of 37-38. Of course, he might decide to retire sooner - he has been playing international cricket since he was 18 and there comes a time when almost everyone wants a change of scenary. The Chanderpaul story from here has precious few certainties.

Believe it or not, some people actually consider this a negative, not a positive, on Chanderpaul. That people know they don't really need to try to get him out as they can just chip away at the other end. Me, I consider it works both ways equally. Like being a lone-hand bowler and bowler in a pack of excellence, being a lone-hand batsman and having a powerful line-up around you both have their advantages and disadvantages. And IMO, they cancel each-other out.

I don't consider it a negative focusing on your own game, it is awfully frustrating being able to keep your concentration while all the other batsmen are collapsing. If he fails after two years I wouldn't be totally surprised. However I do predict that his form to sustain another few years yet. The real challenges are when he plays India in India and Australia in Australia and ofcourse the new English swing attack and also the ever changing Saffie attack.

As you say time will tell, but lets just see the present, Dravid plays tommorow and I am pretty sure Chanderpaul plays soon too, so lets put our hopes up that both players play well, its certainly a wonderful duel either way.

Its no Lara vs Tendulkar, but its certainly endearing in its own way.
 

GoodAreasShane

Cricketer Of The Year
Chanderpauls importance goes far beyond the raw numbers, his career is best viewed as one long rearguard resistance against the decline of cricket in the Caribbean. Massively underappreciated cricketer, it makes me mad to see how he was discarded yet a complete hack like Devon Smith gets a completely undeserved 486,778,310th chance.
 

TheJediBrah

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Dravid is better then 99.9% of batsman playing cricket currently. He is easily the most techinichally sound batsman in the world.
I'm assuming this must have been before Dravid became the expert at getting bowled by innocuous straight balls that we all know and love
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Chanderpaul was an absolutely exceptional player.

Dravid great as well obviously, but had the advantage of playing with players who, whilst for the most part were pretty overrated, were not utter tripe.
 

flibbertyjibber

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Surely this was a ridiculous comparison anyway seeing as one was a number 3 for most of his career and the other a 5 or 6 for virtually all of his. If you went with a Dravid v Ponting or a Shiv v Laxman then you would at least be going on what they were in the same position.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Surely this was a ridiculous comparison anyway seeing as one was a number 3 for most of his career and the other a 5 or 6 for virtually all of his. If you went with a Dravid v Ponting or a Shiv v Laxman then you would at least be going on what they were in the same position.
I imagine the fact that they were both scrappers (or at least were required to play as such for much of their careers) is what formed the basis for the thread tbh
 

Daemon

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I thought it was about looks.

Both very normal looking office job working type men who obviously don't lift. It's a tough call.
 

trundler

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Richard’s capacity for argument really was a wonder of the age
Now I've only joined in May but I've dug up and went through old threads and that bloke absolutely amazed me with his mental gymnastics. The best from what I've seen is him arguing Alec Stewart over Knott. I wonder what became of him.
 

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