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Matthew Fleming

Craig

World Traveller
Or he wasn't good enough in the first place?

And I don't think having a HS of 33 and an average of 15 helped his cause either.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Fleming's selection was bizarre, along with several others who played that tournament and a few others around that time (Dougie Brown, Vince Wells, the Hollioakes, Neil Smith, Mike Watkinson). Fleming's career was also odd in that it was patently obvious to everyone that he was no long-term ODI prospect, but he had the knack all his one-day career for Kent of being hit around for plenty but getting wickets. His ODI career mirrored this.

However, as a one-day bowler he was several divisions behind the likes of Angus Fraser, Darren Gough, Andy Caddick, Alan Mullally and Mark Ealham. So no, he shouldn't have played more than he did.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Players like Fleming are still to a small extent around; someone like Graham Napier is kinda a poor man's Matthew Fleming. A poor bowler who almost always gets smashed but has a knack of getting lots of wickets, and can occasionally smash the odd sensational innings.

However, the Napiers are now generally overlooked for ODI cricket in favour of even worse "specialists" like Sajid Mahmood and Stephen Harmison who can neither take wickets nor score any notable runs, ever.
 

Mard

Banned
Fleming's selection was bizarre, along with several others who played that tournament and a few others around that time (Dougie Brown, Vince Wells, the Hollioakes, Neil Smith, Mike Watkinson). Fleming's career was also odd in that it was patently obvious to everyone that he was no long-term ODI prospect, but he had the knack all his one-day career for Kent of being hit around for plenty but getting wickets. His ODI career mirrored this.

However, as a one-day bowler he was several divisions behind the likes of Angus Fraser, Darren Gough, Andy Caddick, Alan Mullally and Mark Ealham. So no, he shouldn't have played more than he did.

but still i liked those players because no body had heard of them before yet they won that tournament. I was in Sharjah at the time, we all enjoyed how England won. whatever happend to Dougie Brown and Adam Hollioake?
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
but still i liked those players because no body had heard of them before yet they won that tournament. I was in Sharjah at the time, we all enjoyed how England won. whatever happend to Dougie Brown and Adam Hollioake?
Dougie Brown plays for Scotland these days and played in the last WC. Adam Hollioake plays beach cricket.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Dougie Brown plays for Scotland these days and played in the last WC. Adam Hollioake plays beach cricket.
His career really did end once his brother died. I know he played on for a bit at FC level, but it wasn't like he still had another 3 or 4 more years in him.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
His career really did end once his brother died. I know he played on for a bit at FC level, but it wasn't like he still had another 3 or 4 more years in him.
Not really I think he won a couple titles with Surrey and became one of best Twenty20 players in the country. Domestically he still play quite well. I know he was still playing a bit of county cricket last season, maybe just Twenty20 though.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
but still i liked those players because no body had heard of them before yet they won that tournament. I was in Sharjah at the time, we all enjoyed how England won. whatever happend to Dougie Brown and Adam Hollioake?
Winning that tournament was the worst thing to happen to England in ODI cricket as it made the selectors think they were right to continually pick bits and pieces County non-rounders.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Adam Hollioake - The best captain England never had.
Maybe, but only in the same sense that quite a few club or county captains are. Michael Brearley could easily have been such a thing had he been judged - rightly - to be past his best at the age of 34 and not debuted in 1976.

Adam Hollioake was never an international-class batsman (and let's not even talk about his bowling), in Tests or ODIs, and I don't ever like to see a player who isn't up to scratch at the international level given the captaincy. I'd prefer a more moderate captain who is undoubtedly good enough to be playing. As we've seen, a really good backroom mastermind (whatever job title he has - coach, manager, supremo or anything else) can do a decent job of making a poor captain do the job well enough. And you really can have your pick of them, provided no-one else has got their hands on first.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Adam Hollioake plays beach cricket.
His career really did end once his brother died. I know he played on for a bit at FC level, but it wasn't like he still had another 3 or 4 more years in him.
Not really I think he won a couple titles with Surrey and became one of best Twenty20 players in the country. Domestically he still play quite well. I know he was still playing a bit of county cricket last season, maybe just Twenty20 though.
Adam Hollioake retired after the 2004 season, having just passed his 33rd birthday. His brother's death happened just before 2002, and it was immediately noticeable when he returned to the side mid-summer that his attitude had changed. He'd always been a strokeplayer, but now he was in the words of one correspondant "like a man possessed". He scored something like 700 Championship runs off 720 balls (that's a rounded-down figure, I don't have the exact one to hand) at an average of close to 70. His comments, too, showed this: "if I don't score, the sun will still rise tomorrow" or something along those lines. The game of cricket noticeably meant less to him after his brother's death, and it was always apparent that he'd be bringing his retirement forward.

And after a much more moderate 2003 and a very poor 2004, that's what happened.

As for what Surrey won between Ben's death and Adam's retirement: Championship in 2002, Twenty20 Cup in 2003.

Hollioake did return to county cricket in 2007 for Twenty20 Cup only, but that wasn't even for Surrey. And he didn't do anything of great note, unlike in 2003 and 2004.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
but still i liked those players because no body had heard of them before yet they won that tournament. I was in Sharjah at the time, we all enjoyed how England won.
In many ways it was - victory with a load of players no-one has ever heard of is always enjoyable. But as mentioned, in some ways it was a handicap - thereafter, these neither-one-thing-nor-the-other bits-and-pieces players players played ODIs for England: Brown, Fleming, Hollioake, Hollioake, Vince Wells, Andrew Flintoff (for the first 3 years of his career), Graeme Swann (at the time he was first selected), Paul Franks, Paul Grayson, Paul Collingwood, Jeremy Snape, Ian Blackwell, Gareth Batty, Rikki Clarke, Anthony McGrath. I wonder whether all of these would have played (admittedly some played just once or twice) had that victory not come.

However, recently this has been less of a problem. And the hopelessness of England has been more to do with the fact that the selectors can't recognise a hopeless one-day player (like Sajid Mahmood or Geraint Jones, as two for-instances among copious examples) when they see one.
whatever happend to Dougie Brown and Adam Hollioake?
Both played county cricket for a good while after that (and Brown as mentioned is still playing for Scotland) but neither were ever good enough to be playing ODIs (for ODI-class sides) and it's no surprise they didn't last long in the format.
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
Winning that tournament was the worst thing to happen to England in ODI cricket as it made the selectors think they were right to continually pick bits and pieces County non-rounders.
exactly, it's ruined them since, good cricketers make good one day cricketers, average cricketers who excel (or over-excel) in one format at a certain level generally don't make the best one day cricketers, there are exceptions of course
 

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