How bad are the Windies

[sledger]

I don't hate the West Indies, and neither do any other members of the forum as far as I'm aware, and I can assure you, we are thinking of the same Sarwan.

 

[Goughy]

We got a lot of West Indian haters in the forum, you must be thinking of a different Sarwan to me

I dont hate the West Indies at all. People just need to be realistic about their expectations of very ordinary cricketers.

 

[roseboy64]

He barely lasts 5 minutes whenever he bats.

Still not entirely sure why Carlton Baugh has never been given any real run as a Test wicketkeeper-batsman. Mind, I'm also not even sure he's still playing, that's how much note I've taken of WI domestic cricket of late. For all I know he might've barely scored a run the last 4 years.

Baugh played in the just concluded ODIs against Pakistan, where he failed to impress, and an ODI series in Canada against Canada and Bermuda where he did ok. You would notice to that he's in the Test squad for the NZ series.

 

[roseboy64]

I dont hate the West Indies at all. People just need to be realistic about their expectations of very ordinary cricketers.

Not necessarily.

 

[NZTailender]

I dont hate the West Indies at all. People just need to be realistic about their expectations of very ordinary cricketers.

Sarwan isn't ordinary though. Bucket loads of talent to go with some major flaws.

Most of the others though are quite ordinary, like NZ.

 

[roseboy64]

So shall comment on all the players I've seen mentioned and those who should be in contention:

Gayle - Gun in ODIs. Mediocre to good in Tests. With his technique, main problems are against swing and seam. Good against everything else. Habit of trying one shot too many which limits his run making ability in Tests but great for his ODI cricket. Rarely plays controlled innings in Tests but when he does he makes runs, natural instinct prevails mostly for him though.

Sarwan - Good bat in both forms. Should have more centuries but for the first half of his career he got starts but didn't carry on. Had some nice series against Australia and Sri Lanka recently IIRC.

Chanderpaul - Gun.

Bravo - Potential to be a middle order bat but too flashy most times for number 6. Bats better higher up the order or lower down. Not going to be world class bowler but his bowling is an asset and can get wickets although he can be pricy. Would require Gayle to move down the order to maximise his batting potential but that leaves the openers inexperienced unless Chanderpaul goes there but he won't.

Samuels - For most of his career was focused on only using his talent to get by and suffered a few injuries which limited his development as well. Under Lara's last tenure and Gayle he got an extended run in the team and became more focused and started to turn his career around. Also, he wasn't a cheat as much as he broke the rules. When one looks at his case objectively it's very doubtful he was guilty of anything but when one applies the letter of the law fully he can be.

Chattergoon - Has had decent success so far but recently has been falling off getting out cheaply. Good foil for Gayle though if he can turn it around.

Marshall - Inconsistent. Potential there but probably requires a hundred to kick on and start regularly making scores. Nice shots but bad judgement at times.

Ramdin - Great with the gloves. Rceently has been terrible with the bat in international cricket. Not expecting to average more than 30 in either form.

Baugh - Decent to good with the gloves but prone to errors. Bit of a hit an miss when batting due to poor shot selection.

Taylor - Has been improving steadily with the ball and posseses pace and can seam it a bit.

Edwards - Has swing and pace but too erratic.

Powell - Decent in ODIs but should be put out to pasture in Tests ASAP.

Collymore - Good bowler but couldn't get wickets. Could count on him just missing the egde of the bat at least 5 times a match.

Collins - Was mediocre for the most part but recently has improved. Wasn't given a go in the last couple series he was selected for and ineligible for a while because of his Kolpak status. Should walk into the team if and when he's available again. Too late for him to be world class one feels but he should provide left arm swing, wickets and experience.

Devon Smith - FC bully it seems. His last innings against Sri Lanka when he went down the order showed promise but he wasn't persisted with due to his failures before that. Still worth another shot or two.

Dwayne Smith - Decent bowler. No shot selection as a batsman. All the talent in the world can't help you if you don't correct your mistakes.

Nash - Not sure why he was selected for ODIs. Seems he might be a good bet for the number 6 spot in Tests though.

Findlay - Seems out of his depth in international cricket. Not enough FC and List-A experience though which leaves him looking at sea against new types of bowling such as Afridi.

Baker - Has had a promising start to his career and seems he can get wickets regularly.

Johnson - Limited experience to make a comment on his batting.

Morton - Can't quite remember what his problems are. Think it's lack of technique.

Rampaul - In the running for an ODI spot. Decent amount of pace and seems to have some accuracy.

Fletcher - Too flashy one feels. Has some shots but seclection of when to go after certain balls needs work if he's going to have a career of more than T20s.

 

[roseboy64]

Mohammed - Should have played against Pakistan but for some reason didn't. Lots in his arsenal and should be vaulable in limited overs cricket if he gets a run.

Benn - Not sure what's the fuss about him. Tall and gets some bounce and spins it some but that's it.

Jaggernauth - Unfortunately haven't seen much of him. Does well in FC though and had a bad outing in his only Test to date.

Miller - Has done well in ODIs so far. Picks up wickets and fairly economical spinner.

Unless my memory fails me, Miller and Benn are left arm orthodox and Mohammed is left arm unorthodox. Jaggernauth is an off spinner. None has cemented a spot yet as a spinner in either form. Not sure Jaggernauth bowls in ODs though so he mostly is in consideration for Tests. They're the best performing spinners and has to how good they are remains to be seen.

 

[Jigga988]

great summary, agree with you totally, think the main flaws that lie in batting are to do with poor shot selection, players like Gayle, Bravo, Samuels and Devon Smith are all pretty talented but get out in the most ridiculous ways. The discipline needs to be tightened and there needs to be a good rolicking by a West Indian great, although i suppose thats been tried and been unsuccesful.

As for bowling, patience is key. Every single bowler tries to emulate there heroes by bowling bouncers every other ball, this needs to stop, especially if you are powell or bravo and just roll it in at 80mph. Also there needs to be a leader there too, i think Taylor is good but is still young, this is why i reckon Collins should get a nother run in the side. Also, the bowlers arn't helped and are generally discouraged by some shocking fielding.

Also, a lot of the players are talented but go on a bad run and drop there head, Devon Smith being a good example, everyone thought he was going to be such a great player after he made his debut but now he is not even being considered due to lack of form and lack of confidence in his own ability

 

[roseboy64]

Yeah pretty much. More to do with lack of professionalism. Get these guys regular acces to qualoty coaching and the ability to concentrate fully on their cricket and they'll improve. The younger ones that is.Forgot to add Sammy to that list. Ok with the bat and accurate with the ball. Should be worth a shot. Has done well so far.

 

[satheeshv37]

How bad are the Windies....

They are not such a bad team, they have very good pace attack, but they are lack of experience and strength in the batting middle order..

 

[Manee]

Gayle has never scored a ton in a victory against a real Test team and does not possess the technique to regularly contribute on anything but the flattest of tracks.

Moreover, the man is afraid of swing bowling. Had a nightmare against Chaminda Vaas and stated prior to the Stanford T20 that he was glad Anderson had not been picked.

 

[Manee]

If I were to be honest, I'd say that West Indian cricket is a lot about confidence and confidence has been waning since the 1990s up to the low we have today. Although you'd expect me to say it, I'll say it anyway, the main issue lies in the lack of strong fast bowling. West Indians are built for fast bowling, they have explosive muscles, can run fast and are strong (on the whole) and therefore it is a waste that they do not have three 145kph bowlers of good quality - assuming that a great deal of such will naturally produce a few of good quality. Powell is a tad short of express pace, Edwards and Taylor are both up there, but gosh are the three below Test class. Powell is horribly erratic, Edwards is often worse and Taylor is the best of the lot and has a Test average of 34.69 and is a poor tourist.

There is a lack of talent in the batting department, no one is cracking centuries every game and is going unnoticed. The solution is to make the most of the physical talent available and look to capitalise and create a battery of fast bowlers to merely reduce the totals to levels attainable to West Indian batsmen, though how low they will have to reduce opposition totals to may reach unfeasibility.

Furthermore, the level of domestic cricket is laughable, and how it is used. Marshall has not a FC hundred to his name and is playing Test cricket, Baker has 12 OD wickets at 43.25 to his name - something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.

 

[Beamer]

I have seen a number of these players play a fair amount, and I have been following some of the young Trini cricketers from a very early age. Here is what I think of some of our youngsters who are just out of Under 19 cricket or on the periphery of selection:

Adrian Barath - I just can't wait for him to make the senior side, which should be against England as our FC season is a lot longer this year and he will have a chance to pile on the runs. He is our most technically correct batsman for years, and there is no finer sight in cricket then a Barath cover drive. He had a few problems against the short ball when he was 16 but he is improving all the time and can hook and pull reasonably well.

Daren Bravo - A much more talented batsman then his brother (which is quite something in itself), he is a carbon copy of Brian Lara when at the crease. Unfortunately he has the same malaise as lots in the senior team in that he finds a way to get out after making a very pretty 30 or 40 runs.

Kraigg Brathwaite - Only 15 years of age but was one of the standout batsman in our Under 19 competition. He is a shining light amongst our young batsmen in that his batting heroes are Shiv and Kallis, so he like to occupy the crease for ridiculously long periods of time. He doesn't have a huge array of shots yet but that hasn't stopped him scoring bucketfuls of runs.

Kieron Powell - Like a Chris Gayle who gets his feet to the pitch of the ball, he is an explosive hitter of the ball. Unfortunately he keeps getting out for 20's and 30's with ridiculous lofted shots. Still one to watch out for as he has huge amounts of talent.

There is huge amounts of talent available believe me. Our Under 16's are dominating their Australian counterparts in a series at the moment thanks to another talented player named Yanick Cariah. For some reason it all goes wrong from the age of 20 onwards. The best examples of that so far are Devon Smith and Xavier Marshall, who both appeared to be the 2nd coming of George Headley at youth level.

I will tell you what I have seen of our young bowlers later.

 

[Beleg]

Gayle - The closest comparison, in terms of intrinsic quality, is Aamir Sohail. Goughy's comment is spot-on. He's an amazing hitter of the ball but doesn't possess the mental toughness required to augment technical ability.

Sarwan - I am truly at a loss to explain Sarwan's failure in test cricket. The first time I saw him, during his debut series against Pakistan, I remember thinking he'd take the mantle of the world's best batsman from Lara in a few years. I think in terms of technique he possesses all the elements necessary to succeed at the highest level - he can negotiate swing, seam and absolutely hammer spinners when he feels like it. He's got a class wrist and even more importantly, when at full form, he can anticipate variations and adjust his game accordingly. I can only conclude that his problem, like a lot of West Indians, lies somewhere between those two ears of his.

Chanderpaul - His temprament is on a completely different plane compared to the rest of the West Indian players. His main strength lies in playing an auxiliary role - a line-up where he has to carry his team will be resilient from time to time but never dominate attacks. Chanderpaul's considerable reserves of concentration are focused inwards - he isn't the type who can inspire the rest of his team with his words or actions, and that's visible on the field.

He comes of as somebody who's very focused but ultimately selfish - even though that's manifestly not the case. However, preceptions are what matter and in a way Chanderpaul's success is actually the failure of the rest of the team. In a good team, his contributions will never stand out to casual scrunity and he'll never get the accolodes he deserves.

Bravo - Again, Goughy's comments are spot-on. Bravo's presence in the test team and WI's reliance on him is the biggest indication of depleted cricketing stocks in the country.

Samuels - I haven't seen the resurgent Samuels play, however, the old Samuels shouldn't have been anywhere near the test team. He lacks the temprament to survive in testing conditons; furthermore, he also lacks the ability to dictate the tempo of the game - in fact, sans Gayle on roads, West Indies do not possess a batsman who can mould the tempo of a game at will.

Again, consider Ponting, Gilchrist and Hayden for Australia, Tendulkar and Ganguly for India, Pietersen and Trescothick (Stewart earlier) for England, Sangakkara, Jayasuria (De Silva in the past) for Sri Lanka, Graeme Smith, Gibbs (Rhodes, Cronje, Klusener, Pollock in the past - they were trully blessed) and Boucher for South Africa and Yousuf and Inzamam/Saeed in particular for Pakistan. Regardless of their failings/averages/successes they all had one thing in common - they tried their best not to let the bowlers dictate the terms. They were all proactive - while the WI batsmen in general, including Chanderpaul, seem unable or unwilling to do so. In Chanderpaul's case, owing to his inherent class, he is successful inspite of this - while the rest obviously fail.

Chattergoon - He's a nothing player. Not a long term prospect by any means.

Marshall - The kid is definitely talented. He reminds me of a young Imran Nazir in WI during the 2000 tour. He's got flamboyance and charm by the bucketloads - however, again, he seems to flounder and wilt in front of testing bowling. Whether that's a lack of temprament or something else, I am not sure.

Ramdin - What WI would give to have a Ridley Jacobs right now.

Baugh - A walking wicket.

Taylor - Simply isn't consistent enough. The problem with the current crop of WI pacers is that while all of them are promising, none of them rise above the rest of the pack. This is a problem they've inherited from their predecessors - Dillon, King, McLean, Rose - and until they find a geniune match-winner they'ren't going to win any games.

Edwards - Should be that match-winner.

Powell - Not test class.

Collymore - Past his best and not suited to the current WI attack which lacks a leader. He's a pure stock bowler and shouldn't be playing with three other stock bowlers in a team.

Collins - If it swings you can expect him to pick a couple of wickets - if not - he's fodder.

Devon Smith - Walking wicket.

Dwayne Smith - Walking wicket.

Nash - Who?

Findlay - Who?

Baker - Who?

Johnson - Who?

Morton - Walking wicket.

Rampaul - Who?

Fletcher - Who?

Overall Impression: Not enough depth and no stand-out cricketers (sans Chanders who is the wrong kind of standout).

 

[roseboy64]

I take it you didn't watch Pakistan's last series.

 

[Beleg]

I take it you didn't watch Pakistan's last series.

Nope. Just followed it on cricinfo. Did anybody stand out?

 

[Athlai]

Bravo is a poor man's Oram. I like him but he's not exactly a top Test cricket player. Maybe in the years to come.

WI have a two man attack and a few top batsman, yet as a team itself seem to struggle. This isn't a game of individuals, you have to play as a team. Our attack does that, our batting? Well that is something we both have to work on.

 

[Jigga988]

Just to comment on a couple of stuff, Sarwan can and should and hopefully will be that man that can dictate bowlers, and get on top of them, i remember him scoring 6 boundries in an over and generally scores quickly in test cricket, he can play all shots to every type of bowler on both sides of the wicket.

i think Chatergoon is trying to be like Chanderpaul except for the fact that Chanderpaul at least has some shots in his arsenal where as for chatergoon i dont see where the runs will ever come from.

I am still backing Ramdin to come good despite the poor form. The man is a quality keeper and has some shots, in U21 cricket he was quality and besides no one in the current crop of West Indian keepers can challenge him for a place.

I dont really believe Devon Smith is a walking wicket, he has some talent just needs to focus and not lose confidence so easily.

I totally agree with Belag on bowlers, we had such an abundance of bowlers back in the day and they all left about the same era, and we were left with no one to replace them. also the west indian bowlers need to learn a little about temprament and not acting with such a swagger when you are boasting test avereges of forty - Powell being prime example. There arnt even any young prospects to come from the bowling side of things, the only prospect is the hope that Taylor and Edwards can improve to a point where they can knock over attacks cheaply and sustain long periods of time without getting injured. There is some good prospects with the bat but the WI batting line up aint bad at the mo, all the line up needs to do is have a bit more between the ears.

 

[Jigga988]

wern't many stand outs in WI Pakistan, Malik was good Gayle was good, Sarwan was O.K and Taylor was good apart from when he conceded a bunch of runs in the last over of an ODI to lose it for the WI. All games the West Indies should've won but didnt.................... shock

 

[Athlai]

Taylor and Edwards have been two of the finest Test bowlers in the last 12 months.