Warne or Mcgrath the bigger loss?

[Furball]

Warne easily.

Of course McGrath is a huge loss, but the Lee-Clark-Johnson trio is still amongst the best, if not the best, pace attack going around. Whilst the loss of McGrath might help bring the Australians back to the rest of the pack, it doesn't stop them from having the best pace bowling unit in the world currently.

Without Warne, not only do they lose one of the greatest cricketers of all time, but they don't even have a half decent replacement ready for him.

 

[Richard]

There's no way on Earth that Johnson - so far - is a bowler who can contribute greatly to a seam-attack being outstanding. To date in his Test career, Johnson's bowling has been distinctly moderate. My judgement on him long-term is still very much reserved (I honestly don't have a clue whether he'll get better or not), but he's not Test-class currently. He'll have to get better if he's to become so.

 

[Richard]

Even Sri Lanka, if they had him, certainly you'd play both Murali and Warne everywhere you went. It would be a ludicrously good spin combo - in fact, they may become the first team in history to be the best bowling side in the world solely due to their spinners.

Hmm, in the post-covered-wickets era maybe, but England could quite easily have been once or twice in the last 110 years and Australia certainly were once.

In the mid-1950s they (England) had a very strong case to be, with Lock and Laker playing the biggest part in that (though far from the sole part, with Bedser, Statham, Trueman and - briefly - Tyson also around). Likewise in the late-1960s they had a very tenuous case (based purely on the SAfricans, with Pollock, Procter and Trimborn, being banned) and two of the biggest reasons were Underwood and Illingworth (though again Snow, Brown and a few others were certainly important). And if it wasn't England at this time it was India, with the spin triplet of pick-three-from Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat. And they really were the sole reason, with the likes of Abid Ali and Solkar being the seamers.

Australia in the early-1930s were irrefutably the strongest bowling side, and this was entirely due to their spinners Grimmett and O'Reilly - it was a very rare period in history where Australia had no outstanding seam-bowler.

 

[Furball]

There's no way on Earth that Johnson - so far - is a bowler who can contribute greatly to a seam-attack being outstanding. To date in his Test career, Johnson's bowling has been distinctly moderate. My judgement on him long-term is still very much reserved (I honestly don't have a clue whether he'll get better or not), but he's not Test-class currently. He'll have to get better if he's to become so.

That's not what I said.

Australia still, despite the loss of McGrath, have the best pace bowling attack in world cricket. Johnson is a part of that, hence his being mentioned in my post.

 

[Richard]

I don't think he is though.

If Australia have the best seam attack going around (and it's highly debateable that they do) then this is completely down to Stuart Clark and Brett Lee.

Personally I'd say it's very possible that England's seam attack is superior. Flintoff, Sidebottom and (possibly) Anderson has plenty of potential. And Anderson has so far come further on the road to convincing than Johnson has (and neither are there yet).

 

[Xuhaib]

After the retirement of Mcgrath I thought an attack of Asif, Akhtar and Gul would potentialy be the best pace attack in the world but the sad(funny) part is they never got to play a single test match together.

 

[ozone]

The fact that Cameron White is playing as the premier spinner in the Australian side should tell you that Warne is missed far more than McGrath.

BTW, for mine, the S. African seam attack is the best in the world.

 

[Precambrian]

Hmm, in the post-covered-wickets era maybe, but England could quite easily have been once or twice in the last 110 years and Australia certainly were once.

In the mid-1950s they (England) had a very strong case to be, with Lock and Laker playing the biggest part in that (though far from the sole part, with Bedser, Statham, Trueman and - briefly - Tyson also around). Likewise in the late-1960s they had a very tenuous case (based purely on the SAfricans, with Pollock, Procter and Trimborn, being banned) and two of the biggest reasons were Underwood and Illingworth (though again Snow, Brown and a few others were certainly important). And if it wasn't England at this time it was India, with the spin triplet of pick-three-from Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat. And they really were the sole reason, with the likes of Abid Ali and Solkar being the seamers.

Australia in the early-1930s were irrefutably the strongest bowling side, and this was entirely due to their spinners Grimmett and O'Reilly - it was a very rare period in history where Australia had no outstanding seam-bowler.

Also the Windies of the 50s with Alf Valentine and Sonny Ramadhin.

Not to forget the forgotten trio of Kumble-Chauhan-Raju, who made India a bowling force to reckon with from 1992-95. In the 14 test matches they played together, India won 10, drew 4, and lost nothing. (Including the 3-0 whitewash of England)

 

[Precambrian]

Warne easily.

Of course McGrath is a huge loss, but the Lee-Clark-Johnson trio is still amongst the best, if not the best, pace attack going around. Whilst the loss of McGrath might help bring the Australians back to the rest of the pack, it doesn't stop them from having the best pace bowling unit in the world currently.

Without Warne, not only do they lose one of the greatest cricketers of all time, but they don't even have a half decent replacement ready for him.

Disagree. They have been hugely hyped up and also remember that they have been able to dismiss India completely only once so far in this series out of 5 innings. They also struggled in bat friendly conditions in Australia.

Would back the English pace attack as the best right now, followed closely by the SA and Indian pace attack.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I voted Warne because it's obvious who would make more difference if he chose to come back, but it's maybe possible that his absence has been exasperated by both of the next in line twirlers giving it away shortly after.

If, say, Brett Lee & Stu Clark hung their bowling boots up immediately after McGrath would it be so cut and dried?

 

[PhoenixFire]

If you phrase the hypothetical question 'If only one of McGrath and Warne could retire at the same time (this being when they both did), which one would you least like to see retire?'

Assuming that I am an Australian fan (which I am certainly not lol) I would have no doubts in saying that I would rather McGrath stayed on.

 

[Richard]

Also the Windies of the 50s with Alf Valentine and Sonny Ramadhin.

Australia's attack around then of Lindwall, Miller, Johnston was undoubtedly stronger than West Indies' though. Though the West Indies batting, with the three Ws, Rae and Stollmeyer was almost certainly the best around.

 

[zaremba]

Would back the English pace attack as the best right now, followed closely by the SA and Indian pace attack.

Call me a cynical old England fan (you'd be right) but I wouldn't say we had the best pace attack by a long way. I'd say the Saffers are number 1. Then the rest. England, Pakistan, India and Australia are all pretty much of a muchness imo. Sri Lanka maybe a little behind but still competent (and I understand they have a couple of decent spinners).

 

[zaremba]

Australia's attack around then of Lindwall, Miller, Johnston was undoubtedly stronger than West Indies' though. Though the West Indies batting, with the three Ws, Rae and Stollmeyer was almost certainly the best around.

Shouldn't we be filing him alongside Meckiff, Lock, Perera and Kirtley?

 

[Richard]

z

 

[zaremba]

I've been trying to post the link with the conclusive evidence but not having much success. Do a search for "ray lindwall video" and you'll find the clip. The man was a chucker!

 

[Richard]

Call me a cynical old England fan (you'd be right) but I wouldn't say we had the best pace attack by a long way. I'd say the Saffers are number 1. Then the rest. England, Pakistan, India and Australia are all pretty much of a muchness imo. Sri Lanka maybe a little behind but still competent (and I understand they have a couple of decent spinners).

SA could potentially be the best seam-attack around currently, beyond question, for mine. But the trouble is, Nel appears terminally past his best, Ntini is fast going the same way, Steyn has a plateuing to do, and Morne Morkel, well, isn't the finished article by a long chalque.

Sidebottom and Flintoff is a highly exciting combination for mine, and as I say, if Anderson can continue the progress he made last summer, we've got a damn good attack on our hands.

However, being no small cynic myself, I'm certainly not going to go getting confident that this'll be happening.

 

[Richard]

I've been trying to post the link with the conclusive post but not having much success.
***************************************lindwall.mpg

Try putting one space somewhere, and instructing us where to delete it. I'm sure no Mod is about to warm you for false advertising.

 

[zaremba]

http://3lib.ukonline.co.uk/

and then add

cricket/lindwall.mpg

 

[Richard]

Hmm, that's a strange one.

Can't say I've ever studied Lindwall's action in great detail before now TBH, and am not about to go making up my mind based on one piece of footage, but I'll take a closer look next time I'm watching what I've got.