Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't know that he is yet, but he certainly appers to be well on track to be and should he keep-up his form of his career so far for the next 4-5 years he'll be such a thing, beyond refute.
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MS Dhoni as a test wicketkeeper
- Thread starter Salamuddin
- Start date
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Well even if Dhoni does keep up his ODI exploits (which he should) comparing him or rating him above/below/on par with Gilchrist does seem a bit silly given that roles as keeper/batsman are so different.
At the end of the day given Gilly was an opener, you would still pick him in an All-time ODI side ahead of Dhoni for balance, even if Dhoni ended with a career ODI batting average of 40.
At the end of the day given Gilly was an opener, you would still pick him in an All-time ODI side ahead of Dhoni for balance, even if Dhoni ended with a career ODI batting average of 40.
Let's talk when Dhoni has been the most dominant batsman in 3 WC Finals
Dhoni is a very good player but comparisons with Gilchrist are not fair on either player
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
Dhoni has done nothing to earn a comparison with Gilchrist in any form of the game. It is laughable to suggest that Dhoni is the best ODI keeper batsman ever.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Dhoni is not a natural wicket keeper and in cricket if there is one discipline where you are almost 'born' to do that job, it is keeping.
Hence his keeping was pretty ordinary for some time. From the tour of England last year he suddenly started showing improvement and reached a level where you could not say, he should not be in the side but for his batting. But not being a natural, he has to keep working very hard at keeping up the standard. He did look as if he has slipped in these last two Test matches. Maybe with his batting needing attention, he has neglected his keeping practice somewhat but he is a smart guy and will come back sooner I would think.
Hence his keeping was pretty ordinary for some time. From the tour of England last year he suddenly started showing improvement and reached a level where you could not say, he should not be in the side but for his batting. But not being a natural, he has to keep working very hard at keeping up the standard. He did look as if he has slipped in these last two Test matches. Maybe with his batting needing attention, he has neglected his keeping practice somewhat but he is a smart guy and will come back sooner I would think.
tooextracool
International Coach
Dhoni has made a fair number of changes to his game since his debut, especially temperamentally. It is fair to say that he was a very very poor test batsman when he first came onto the scene and now he is just an ordinary one. I can see that he is now more capable to adapt to situations and play different innings in test match cricket, as opposed to when England last toured India when he was chastised and many considered dropping him from the side for that ridiculous dismissal in Mumbai.
However, its fairly easy to say that his technique is still fundamentally poor and with such an average technique there is no way he will be consistently scoring runs in test crickets. His best scores have been on flat wickets, thats not surprising and one can expect things to stay the same unless he makes some serious changes to his technique which I do not forsee in the near future. I would suggest Karthik is a better batsman, but Dhoni provides the kind of package that India needs at this point. His ability to turn a game around in the space of a session at number 7 albeit on a flat pitch sets him apart from the rest of his teammates bar Sehwag. Not to mention that he is mentally quite astute and destined to be a future captain.
Precambrian
Banned
Yeah, but I said ODI batsman, not WC batsman. Let's see what Dhoni do when he plays in a WC final.
On the contrary, it is a point to be pondered. Gilly has been destructive and a matchwinner too. But that was less frequent than Dhoni currently is. I am comparing only on the basis of Dhoni's performance so far. It is possible he'll slump badly in the future, and I could revise my opinion. At the moment, he has done his dough to be rated better than Gilly.
AWTA. He has to go a long way before he is regarded as a good Test batsman. However at the moment, his glovework is far better than any of his contemporaries in India, and perhaps he's one among the best keepers in the world, alongwith Prasanna Jayawardene and Boucher. But he knows his strengths and limitations, and play within that. There is nothing to suggest that Dhoni can't be better than he is now.
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SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I completely agree with all those who consider Gilchrist far superior to Dhoni, both as a keeper and as a devastating batsman.
I don't think Dhoni will be considered Gilchrist's superior by history.
Dhoni is probably stronger mentally than Gilchrist (its a perception) and one may see him to be more flexible and adaptable which in some situations will mean he will more likely to deliver. But in most situations that he is called upon as a lower middle order batsman to a solid upper order, Gilchrist would do a better hjob od finishing the opposition and burying them. As a keeper, even though I am one of those who dont rate Gilchrist as one of the great keepers, he was far superior to MSD.
I don't think Dhoni will be considered Gilchrist's superior by history.
Dhoni is probably stronger mentally than Gilchrist (its a perception) and one may see him to be more flexible and adaptable which in some situations will mean he will more likely to deliver. But in most situations that he is called upon as a lower middle order batsman to a solid upper order, Gilchrist would do a better hjob od finishing the opposition and burying them. As a keeper, even though I am one of those who dont rate Gilchrist as one of the great keepers, he was far superior to MSD.
tooextracool
International Coach
I think Gilchrist is overrated in these parts especially in ODI cricket. He could turn a game around quickly, but that was the only way he could play the game and it is this lack of varying his game to the situation for why I think Dhoni could well go on to be better. He almost certainly will if he continues in the same vein as he has thus far.
Precambrian
Banned
I am afraid I have to disagree here. Gilchrist had the advantage of excellent ODI batsmen like Ponting, Martyn, Waugh/Clarke, Bevan/Hussey, not to mention Hayden to back him up, and hence his role was more or less fixed, to play aggressively without any fear of failing. It is not the case with Dhoni, atleast in the last 2 years. He has become the core of the Indian ODI batting lineup alongwith Tendulkar. And he had to play both the aggressor as well as the accumulator role, even in pressure-cooker situations.
tooextracool
International Coach
Yeah thats exactly the point. One only has to look at his display in the WC final in 2003. By all counts, if any player outside of Australia had batted in the carefree and irresponsible manner in which he batted in that inning, they would have been dropped or severely chastised but because of the quality of the batting to follow it didnt really matter.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
We are talking Test match I thought and both of them, by and large batted in the lower middle order.
The batsmen who came before Dhoni were no bunnies compared to Gilchrist's Australian batsmen. Dhoni has not had to support the Indian "poor batting" for much of his career. In the last one year or so when the famous Indian middle order failed to fire, Dhoni performed at his worst till this last Test, where again the top order fired.
No. Your argument is not valid.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I wouldn't, because there are plenty of better ODI openers than Gilchrist. And Dhoni >>>>> Gilchrist at lower-order batting.
Uppercut
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The roles are so completely different that comparing them is barely valid at all.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
Wow finals. Three games that most players never even get to. Give him Warne, Gillespie and McGrath, and then maybe we can see.
In any case, right now, comparisons with Gilly are ludicrous.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I know, I wasn't. I was saying that Gilchrist was proven as an opener and was not that good at lower-order hitting; Dhoni is proven as a lower-order hitter (and rebuilder, and over-the-line guider) and has not done the opening job.
And I was saying that there are quite a few better ODI openers than Gilchrist (Tendulkar, Lara [possibly], Mark Waugh, Saeed Anwar, Ganguly, Knight, Jayasuriya, Gayle [possibly], Smith - one could even argue a case for Kirsten and Astle) and very, very few better at the lower-order role than Dhoni. So hence, should Dhoni keep-up his form of the last 3 years for the next 4 or 5, I'd have no hesitation in picking him ahead of Gilchrist for a 1990s-onwards ODI XI.