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Thread: Matty Hayden v SUnil Gavaskar - better test opener ?

  1. #46
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weldone View Post
    Wait, wait, wait...What? Kapil Dev was an average bowler? Well, yes, his bowling is in no way comparable to Lillee's but that's a different question altogether...But, Kapil Dev was an average bowler! Then what was Sir Gary Sobers? I sincerely hope you won't say poor...
    Sorry, maybe I should have worded it better. In the pantheon of great bowlers, Kapil is definitely average. In fact, in the whole of cricketing history, the average bowler averages 31.49 runs a wicket at an SR of 70.9 - which is not that far from Kapil's career figures.

    And you completely misunderstood SJS's point...He never meant Hayden is average...He meant Hayden is a very good opener, as good as Kapil as a pace bowler perhaps...
    I know, and that is, frankly, ridiculous.

    But Lillee and Gavaskar are in a different league altogether...They are among the best 5-6 in the business in history of cricket (in pace bowling and opening respectively), which Hayden or Kapil aren't...
    Hayden and Kapil aren't comparable. Hayden and Gavaskar are.

    If you want to differ in view do that (like if you feel Hayden is one of the best openers in the history of test cricket, you are free to feel so), but don't make comments like calling Kapil an average bowler...On a second thought, probably you yourself will understant that was idiotic.
    No, Kapil is an average bowler when you consider him amongst the best bowlers. Hayden is simply one of the very best 5-6 (as you mentioned) openers of all-time. And if you do not hold that view, you should at least concede that they are comparable.

    If you don't, then I don't know what to say. You're wrong, plainly. I already know the reasons you would cite trying to prove me wrong and I already have provided the answers to counter them. Maybe it's best to dig up that thread or learn more about the batsmen in question.
    ★★★★★

  2. #47
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    I am not sure if you watched Gavaskar bat?
    tbh generally when I watch old cricket it looks like a load of rubbish and I can't take it seriously at all. I guess we better not go there....

    But you have watched Lara and Ponting, would you rate Ponting in front of Lara? He has a better average
    I rate them pretty close.

    Guys like Lara, Ponting, Dravid, Tendulkar, Hayden, Kallis- all of these guys have, at times during my cricket watching life, had periods of several years where they just seemed imperious and impossible to get out.

    I have no idea why Hayden cops so much crap because he has 2 things going for him for mine- not only his impressive stats, but the fact that for a period of several years (early 2000s) he was just totally dominant, imposing and intimidating, scoring massive runs at great speed and making bowlers look ineffective.

    I find it very difficult to split these batsman and even more difficult to fathom why people want to pretend that there is some massive distinction between any two of them.

  3. #48
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    Or- Viv Richards, the batsman who could (apparently) dominate attacks with ease, yet (apparently) chose (?) not to, instead settling for being less successful at test match run-gettery than the (apparently) mediocre Matthew Hayden.
    Frankly, Viv never faced minnows like Hayden did and if you remove them from Hayden's overall record their averages are similar. Except that Viv also scored at a much faster rate. And that he did it against probably better bowlers overall and definitely on pitches unlike Hayden.

  4. #49
    International Coach archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    tbh generally when I watch old cricket it looks like a load of rubbish and I can't take it seriously at all. I guess we better not go there....



    I rate them pretty close.

    Guys like Lara, Ponting, Dravid, Tendulkar, Hayden, Kallis- all of these guys have, at times during my cricket watching life, had periods of several years where they just seemed imperious and impossible to get out.

    I have no idea why Hayden cops so much crap because he has 2 things going for him for mine- not only his impressive stats, but the fact that for a period of several years (early 2000s) he was just totally dominant, imposing and intimidating, scoring massive runs at great speed and making bowlers look ineffective.

    I find it very difficult to split these batsman and even more difficult to fathom why people want to pretend that there is some massive distinction between any two of them.
    I find it hard to understand how you could think Ponting as good as Lara, it is not that much between them but I would think most would have Lara comfortably in front
    You know it makes sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    I find it hard to understand how you could think Ponting as good as Lara, it is not that much between them but I would think most would have Lara comfortably in front

    It's all about the pushing of buttons on the pocket calculator.

  6. #51
    International Coach archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    It's all about the pushing of buttons on the pocket calculator.
    Yes it does seem like that, with a lot of people on this site

  7. #52
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Frankly, Viv never faced minnows like Hayden did and if you remove them from Hayden's overall record their averages are similar. Except that Viv also scored at a much faster rate. And that he did it against probably better bowlers overall and definitely on pitches unlike Hayden.
    ?

    Didn't you just make the exact opposite argument to justify comparing Hayden to Gavaskar?

    And Viv scored much faster? What was his strike-rate?

  8. #53
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    I find it hard to understand how you could think Ponting as good as Lara, it is not that much between them but I would think most would have Lara comfortably in front
    Cos he's West Indian?

  9. #54
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Richards, Lara, Sobers....

    what is it with West Indian cricketers and people's ability to be rational...

  10. #55
    Hall of Fame Member weldone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Hayden and Kapil aren't comparable. Hayden and Gavaskar are.
    Your point...You are free to believe what you want to, I am also free to do so...There's no way we can change each other's beliefs...So let's agree to disagree peacefully...
    "Cricket is an art. Like all arts it has a technical foundation. To enjoy it does not require technical knowledge, but analysis that is not technically based is mere impressionism."
    - C.L.R. James

  11. #56
    Hall of Fame Member weldone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    Batsman with 7,000/8,000 or more test runs at an average over 50 can all reasonably be compared to each other, with the exception of Bradman. This should be obvious yet somehow isn't.
    So, according to you, Sachin Tendulkar and Mahela Jayawardene can be reasonably compared to each other?

  12. #57
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    In fact, in the whole of cricketing history, the average bowler averages 31.49 runs a wicket at an SR of 70.9 - which is not that far from Kapil's career figures.
    Very good point.

    Try comparing the average average of a top-order bat to Hayden's average. How can Kapil and Hayden possibly be compared

  13. #58
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    ?

    Didn't you just make the exact opposite argument to justify comparing Hayden to Gavaskar?

    And Viv scored much faster? What was his strike-rate?
    How did I?

    Gavaskar faced minnows, Hayden faced minnows. Gavaskar faced weaker attacks, Hayden faced weaker attacks, etc.

    My point was that a lot of these criticisms of Hayden also go for Gavaskar...yet they are barely mentioned and compared fairly.

    I understand your point completely though, and I agree. I find if revolting the way people make differentiations about someone like Chappell and Ponting or Tendulkar and Sobers. It's getting pretentious and is fuelled with prejudice.

  14. #59
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weldone View Post
    So, according to you, Sachin Tendulkar and Mahela Jayawardene can be reasonably compared to each other?
    Yep

    Hadn't thought about that one too much tbh. Jayawardene is certainly remarkably underrated.

    I think it makes sense for the burden of proof to be on you to explain why the figures somehow don't represent the truth

  15. #60
    International Coach G.I.Joe's Avatar
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    Without wanting to get involved in the current debate, I'm interested in the database size for arriving at that statistic of the bowling average of 31. Does it include part timers as well or just bowlers fulfilling a certain set of criterea? I'd have estimated it to be around 34-37 myself.

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