Left arm spinner averages?

[Mard]

why do famous left arm spinners like Daniel Vettori, Monty Panesar, Ashley Giles etc... have bowling averages that are so high? all of them have bowling averages over 30 in test cricket.

[James_W]

To answer simply, none of them are that penetrative in the test arena. Vettori has improved over time, Monty usually goes through a quiet patch and then he pulls out a good performance (6 wickets at OT against NZ) and Giles average truly reflects his quality as a bowler IMO.

[stumpski]

And finger spinners, left and right arm, have struggled in Tests for quite a few years now. The only ones who've enjoyed sustained success have been those who had something extra such as Harbhajan and Muralitharan (who could be classed as a wrist-spinner). There's nothing to stop an orthodox left-armer developing a doosra if he can find a way to deliver it without transgressing the throwing law.

[sanga1337]

Originally Posted by James_W

To answer simply, none of them are that penetrative in the test arena. Vettori has improved over time, Monty usually goes through a quiet patch and then he pulls out a good performance (6 wickets at OT against NZ) and Giles average truly reflects his quality as a bowler IMO.

This basically sums it up

[Perm]

Simply put, it's because they are finger spinners. Generally finger spinners don't tend to have much success on anything other than spin-friendly wickets because they don't have the tools to take big hauls of wickets and run through sides. As a result their averages are higher.

[Top_Cat]

It's harder to set attacking fields for left-arm spinners of either sort. They obviously bowl mostly to right-handed batsmen and if they bowl over or around the wicket, you have to give them plenty of protection for the tuck around the corner. If they over-pitch, easy runs through cover; if they under-pitch, the cut is on.

If the legside LBW clause and the 2-men rule weren't there, I'd say they'd be far more effective because batsmen wouldn't be able to just kick them away and they could stack the leg-side field with catchers.

[Migara]

Originally Posted by Mard

why do famous left arm spinners like Daniel Vettori, Monty Panesar, Ashley Giles etc... have bowling averages that are so high? all of them have bowling averages over 30 in test cricket.

I think they have better averages than right arm finger spinners.

[a massive zebra]

Originally Posted by James_W

Vettori has improved over time,

Purely as a bowler, I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. He may have appeared penetrative of late against the clueless Englishman, but a split of his stats over time between the first and second half of his career suggests any apparent improvement is nothing but a myth.

In his first 41 Tests Vettori took 138 wickets at 33.13, and in his last 42 Tests he has taken just 119 at a profligate 35.94. If you take Bangladesh out of the equation the decline is far more significant.

[Perm]

As somebody who has only seen the last few years of Vettori's career I'm not qualified to comment on how good his bowling was when first selected for New Zealand. But, from what I've read and heard from commentators etc, he has improved markedly. His bowling has become smarter over time and he's added more weapons to his arsenal also, but this improvement in his bowling ability hasn't translated into improvements with his results.

[Goughy]

Originally Posted by Perm

As somebody who has only seen the last few years of Vettori's career I'm not qualified to comment on how good his bowling was when first selected for New Zealand. But, from what I've read and heard from commentators etc, he has improved markedly. His bowling has become smarter over time and he's added more weapons to his arsenal also, but this improvement in his bowling ability hasn't translated into improvements with his results.

Interesting use if the word 'improvement'.

He has added skills but those skills dont translate to more wickets. Bowling one thing brilliantly is better than bowling 6 things ordinarily.

Purists love variation and artistry (take the high regard Richard Dawson was held by many prominent ex-pros and the fact Alex Loudon played for England based on the fact he bowled the doosra, ignoring the fact he cant bowl) but production is more important than style.

[Matt79]

Originally Posted by Mard

why do famous left arm spinners like Daniel Vettori, Monty Panesar, Ashley Giles etc... have bowling averages that are so high? all of them have bowling averages over 30 in test cricket.

They're deeply average is the simple answer

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Migara

I think they have better averages than right arm finger spinners.

Exactly.

Right-arm fingerspin bowled to even close to Test standard in recent times has been a rare thing.

As mentioned by various parties, fingerspin cannot be successful without helpful conditions. These conditions are very rare these days. In the days of covered wickets (1970, there or thereabouts in this country, is when they finished) they were more common and fingerspin was something viable in more countries around The World. These days it's only really viable in Sri Lanka and, sometimes, India and West Indies.

Even "special" fingerspinners like Saqlain Mushtaq and Harbhajan Singh, who can potentially be better than "normal" ones (like Vettori and Panesar) due to their ability to bowl the Doosra, do not have the ability to bowl penetratively on surfaces that don't aid them.

[steds]

Originally Posted by a massive zebra

In his first 41 Tests Vettori took 138 wickets at 33.13, and in his last 42 Tests he has taken just 119 at a profligate 35.94. If you take Bangladesh out of the equation the decline is far more significant.

Did you know statistics are always right 73% of the time?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by a massive zebra

In his first 41 Tests Vettori took 138 wickets at 33.13, and in his last 42 Tests he has taken just 119 at a profligate 35.94. If you take Bangladesh out of the equation the decline is far more significant.

I think the best way to sum-up Vettori's Test career is thus. Bangladesh and the series in Zimbabwe in 2005/06 are excluded, obviously, as is the Super Test:
1996/97-2001/02 - 34 Tests, average 33.
2001/02-2004 - 19 Tests, average 60.
2004/05-2008 - 23 Tests, average 33.
Like Mike Gatting and Mushtaq Ahmed, his career comes in three parts. The first and third are half-decent, the second abysmal (there are actually 18 poor games and 1 excellent one in there - in the 18 his average is even worse).

[steds]

Originally Posted by Richard

the second abysmal (there are actually 18 poor games and 1 excellent one in there - in the 18 his average is even worse).

Funnily enough, that period includes New Zealand's 2004 tour of England, where iirc Vettori bowled extremely well for little reward before injuring himself midway through the second Test.