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who should be kicked out of England ODI team?

Mard

Banned
ok i have had enough of Owais Shah, Ravi Bopara, Ian Bell.

I think these three have had enough time to prove themselves, and they haven't been really good. From next series other players should be given chances.
 

Mard

Banned
^ actually no, i think in that 1997 tournament england deserved to win. That was one of the best ODI tournaments i had seen.
 

_Ed_

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I thought Shah was brilliant in the first ODI, surely he deserves a few more chances after that.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Shah as probably one of the worst records for a specialist bat that has played that many games in the history of ODIs.

Bopara has a shocking record and looks out of his depth at the crease. However, he has a 200+ in List A this season so he deserves to be there at the moment.

Bell shouldnt be there. It is far too easy to set a field to him and have him hit straight to fielders. Its not about strike rate (Ie Bevan had a low strike rate) but the ability to improvise and score runs when a team is bowling well to a field. Bell doesnt have this.

Wright is there on what they hope he can do rather than deserving to be there. He is a fingers crossed selection. Cant see him ever being consistent but there will be occasional good innings along the way. I think a place could be found for a player like him (hard hitting and ok quick) but he isnt one of the first names on the list.

Also mentioned

Swann. Im happy with him. Has a decent ODI record and a good domestic record. Also add experience, variation and depth in batting.

However, the issue is always, are there other guys that are better? Id like Shah and Bell out of the team but Id need a long think before doing that as the replacements have to be an upgrade rather than change for the sake of change.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Wright
Cook
KP
Bell
Collingwood
Ambrose
Mascarenhas
Swann
Broad
Sidebottom
Anderson

IMO.
Bell is significantly better than Cook IMO.

I think this reaction is a bit OTT anyway. Only a game ago people were saying how much better the team looked as a unit. The second ODI was a setback but it doesn't mean mass changes are needed.

EDIT: Ahh you've included Bell at 4. Fair enough I suppose. My second point still stands though.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Bell is significantly better than Cook IMO.

I think this reaction is a bit OTT anyway. Only a game ago people were saying how much better the team looked as a unit. The second ODI was a setback but it doesn't mean mass changes are needed.

EDIT: Ahh you've included Bell at 4. Fair enough I suppose. My second point still stands though.
I think you will find Ive been quite consistent with my opinion of Bell as an ODI player over the years.
 

Laurrz

International Debutant
Shah as probably one of the worst records for a specialist bat that has played that many games in the history of ODIs.

.
a bit surprising given he said something like he wants to a bevan type player for england hmm :laugh:
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I think you will find Ive been quite consistent with my opinion of Bell as an ODI player over the years.
Indeed. Shah as well. As I've said before though, picking a team from scratch is different to working with an incumbent team. I'd have Trott ahead of Shah and Bopara for example (assuming he's done well in List A cricket this season; I haven't followed it very closely this year) but Shah has done reasonably well since his recall even given all his past failures and Bopara hasn't been given an extended run (unless you count those games he batted way down the order in) so it'd be harsh to drop them.

People often jump at a loss like this as a perfect opportunity to plug the team they think should have been there from the start, but that team will always be a bit different to the team that should be there now if you're following a consistent selection process. Bell actually has the second highest ODI batting average in the team at present and his strike rate has been on the improve over the last year. You may not have much faith in him as an ODI player but that's something that should have been considered before he was selected originally - he hasn't done poorly enough to be dropped from the team, especially in the context of his peers.

You could probably make an argument for dropping Shah - he's been better since his recall, but still not really ODI standard. It'd be a funny time to drop him after what he did two games ago but you could certainly make a case for it.
 
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Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
^ actually no, i think in that 1997 tournament england deserved to win. That was one of the best ODI tournaments i had seen.

That was the worst thing that ever happened to England in ODI cricket. It was the first time they started selecting bits and pieces county all-rounders and supposedly specialist one day domestic cricketers instead of players of proven class. Although it succeeded in that tournament it's been down hill ever since.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I think this reaction is a bit OTT anyway. Only a game ago people were saying how much better the team looked as a unit. The second ODI was a setback but it doesn't mean mass changes are needed..
Word, wild thread & reaction especially given these are the best possible ODI players available for ENG ATM.
 

KiWiNiNjA

International Coach
Haha, after the 1st ODI this team was being heralded as very good and in need of respect.

What happened?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Shah as probably one of the worst records for a specialist bat that has played that many games in the history of ODIs.
But Goughy sir, thats just basically looking at plain stats. Following Shah's career one would see over the past year at least he has found a role @ 6 that he is doing a decent job in after years of being juggled around the side.

Bopara has a shocking record and looks out of his depth at the crease. However, he has a 200+ in List A this season so he deserves to be there at the moment.
Well we all have our opinions but i have never got that impression about Bopara while seeing him bat.



Bell shouldnt be there. It is far too easy to set a field to him and have him hit straight to fielders. Its not about strike rate (Ie Bevan had a low strike rate) but the ability to improvise and score runs when a team is bowling well to a field. Bell doesnt have this.
All could be true, but he has still managed a decent record as an opener. But in a perfect world he probably shouldn't be opening.

Wright is there on what they hope he can do rather than deserving to be there. He is a fingers crossed selection. Cant see him ever being consistent but there will be occasional good innings along the way. I think a place could be found for a player like him (hard hitting and ok quick) but he isnt one of the first names on the list.
Word, but i'd be tempted to say he looks better than Flintoff when he came on the scene.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Shah as probably one of the worst records for a specialist bat that has played that many games in the history of ODIs.
Ricardo Powell is even worse, but apart from him I struggle to think of anyone as bad.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That was the worst thing that ever happened to England in ODI cricket. It was the first time they started selecting bits and pieces county all-rounders and supposedly specialist one day domestic cricketers instead of players of proven class. Although it succeeded in that tournament it's been down hill ever since.
The biggest problem has been the number of times people have tried to claim the team has "moved away" from bits-and-pieces players - FFS, they were saying this in 2002 because they'd dropped Mark Ealham (a proven excellent one-day bowler) and were then picking the likes of Jeremy Snape.

In essence, though, bits-and-pieces players are not the main problem. Yes, the likes of Matthew Fleming, Dougie Brown, Neil Smith and Adam Hollioake himself were never going to be ODI-class cricketers (or Vince Wells, selected shortly afterwards), but nor were specialists selected around the same time like Graham Lloyd, Chris Silverwood and Alastair Brown. Picking bad specialists has been every bit as much of a problem as picking useless bits-and-pieces cricketers.

I mean, I always go from WC99. Virtually all the players who've debuted or almost debuted (having played 3 or 4 games previously) since then had zero chance of becoming ODI-class cricketers:
Mark Alleyne - played the odd extraordinary innings and was always someone I liked but never had anywhere near the consistency required.
Andrew Flintoff - was hopeless for years before finally becoming pretty good in 2001/02, then very good a year later.
Chris Read - debuted before he was much good and in recent years since he has become good his past failures have haunted him.
Vikram Solanki - hopeless.
Graeme Swann - hopeless when first picked, looking decent 8 years later.
Marcus Trescothick - excellent player but gone now.
Paul Franks - hopeless.
Paul Grayson - shudder. How on Earth did he get anywhere near selection? :blink:
Michael Vaughan - hopeless in the shorter game, clogged the team up for 7 years due to being a good Test player and the fact that half this country can't tell the difference between the game-forms.
Paul Collingwood - hopeless for ages, been a bit better recently.
Owais Shah - hopeless in his first two spells, a bit less than hopeless in his most recent one, but overall picked for the wrong form of the game.
James Foster - never anywhere near as good a one-day batsman as Read.
Matthew Hoggard - Vaughan with the ball.
James Kirtley - hopeless.
Jeremy Snape - possibly the worst player ever to play ODIs for England, until Tim Bresnan.
Ryan Sidebottom - shouldn't have been picked when he was, back now hopefully for a while.
Alex Tudor - hopeless in the one-day game.
Ian Blackwell - useless.
Gareth Batty - hopeless.
James Anderson - never been that good despite not irregularly having much better figures than his bowling merited.
Stephen Harmison - hopeless, except in the summers of 2004 and 2005 when he was surprisingly good.
Rikki Clake - picked for the wrong form of the game.
Anthony McGrath - poor.
Jamie Troughton - picked for the wrong form of the game.
Richard Johnson - sure enough, decent performances... and promptly dropped for crap bowlers. Played 5 serious ODIs, all in 2003 and 2003/04, and had an economy-rate of 4.29-an-over (average 48.66) but didn't get another game.
Robert Key - picked for the wrong form of the game.
Kabir Ali - picked for the wrong form of the game.
Andrew Strauss - picked for the wrong form of the game.
Geraint Jones - picked for the wrong form of the game, after being picked for the right one admittedly, but still should not have replaced Read.
Sajid Mahmood - hopeless.
Alex Wharf - hopeless.
Ian Bell - never that good yet in ODIs either as an opener or three.
Kevin Pietersen - excellent.
Simon Jones - no great crack in his whole 5 ODIs so far, and a dubious selection ITFP.
Matthew Prior - hopeless, especially inexplicable when picked as a specialist batsman.
Jonathan Lewis - not bad, but never given a fair crack and now too old for WC2011.
Chris Tremlett - still hopeless so far, despite a good spell most recently.
Liam Plunkett - hopeless.
Glen Chapple - 1 game against Ireland, doesn't deserve to be a ODI.
Jamie Dalrymple - not really given a particularly fair crack, but let's face it, he was never going to be a World-beater anyway.
Ed Joyce - mostly picked completely out of position, and not surprisingly failed.
Tim Bresnan - currently the worst player ever to play ODIs for England.
Alex Loudon - batsman picked to bowl fingerspin. Enough said.
Alastair Cook - still yet to really look the part at ODI cricket, not terribly surprisingly.
Stuart Broad - beginning to.
Michael Yardy - hopeless, and wrong form of the game.
Paul Nixon - excellent job as a stopgap measure but no more and was never going to be.
Monty Panesar - picked for the wrong form of the game, after being picked for the right one admittedly.
Mal Loye - worth a try, but didn't come off, and now too old and out-of-nick this year anyway.
Ravinder Bopara - still to convince.
Dimitri Mascarenhas - not given a fair crack of the whip yet.
Luke Wright - hopeless.
Philip Mustard - hopeless.
Tim Ambrose - not yet done much, only really had 1 serious innings so far though.

Which all in all, is not very encouraging, and still there's evidence little has changed.
 

PhoenixFire

International Coach
Are you really saying that Grayson > Bresnan? I mean Bresnan was crap then, but he bowled really well against Lancs on Friday. A good ODI player of the future IMO.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
But Goughy sir, thats just basically looking at plain stats. Following Shah's career one would see over the past year at least he has found a role @ 6 that he is doing a decent job in after years of being juggled around the side.
What, he's played 2 innings where he's bashed it at the end? 1 in which he should've been out long before the bash was on.

Shah is poor and always has been poor. Yes, he's done a bit better this time around, wherever he's batted, than he did in his previous two stints in the side, but he's still been damn poor.
 

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