*Official* Australia in decline thread

[Richard]

You really do defy belief sometimes.
Is that really the best you can do?

 

[age_master]

You really do defy belief sometimes.
Is that really the best you can do?

noo, but i have to make sure you can understand it

The ODI sides from back than...(WC squads)

Australia has
lost: Waugh's, Dale, Fleming, BJ, S Lee, Moody and Reiffel

gained: Hayden, Lee, Clarke, Hogg, Gillespie and harvey (i might have missed someone)

add to that the massive improvements since than of Ponting and Symonds, and i reakon youve got a much better ODI side.


and considering that the Australian 99 side beat the south african 99 side....

 

[Richard]

So, to translate that, they have lost 2 World-class ODI players (M Waugh and Dale) and 4 other very good ones (S Waugh, Moody, Fleming, Reiffel). They have gained one player whose figures since then have been outstanding and deservedly so (Gillespie - since The AIWA Cup his ER has been under 4 and the average very good too) three massively overrated, flattered-by-stats players (Lee, Clarke and Hayden) and two proven by-and-large rubbish players (Hogg and Harvey). Ponting hasn't made much improvement (his average has been static at 42-ish since 2001 at least). Symonds has become flattered by his stats like Hayden.
And just because the South African side somehow contrived to lose - effectively twice - to the Australian side of '99 doesn't, in my estimation, make them inferior.

 

[age_master]

Dale a world class ODI player :S:S:S

30 matches, 32 wickets at 30.59

Harvey

71 matches, 81 wickets (4 4wi) at 30.02 - and hes handy with teh bat occasionally.


the Waughs were both good.

Moody - batting average 23, bowling 38.... useful but i wouldn't say very good.

BJ - batting average 13, bowling average 45.... worse on both parts than moody

Flem - good bowler - averaged 25, slightly expensive @ 4.41 per over but overall a good bowler

Reiffel - good bowler also, average 29, high SR but excellent economy at 3.92



and the players gained

Dizzy - average just under 25, arguably the best going around atm

Brett Lee - average 22.14, excellent SR and slightly expensive economy at 4.67, but takes alot of wickets and intimidates batsmen

Symonds - averaged 45 or soemthing with the bat since teh start of teh world cup, one of the best hitters of the ball anywhere - worlds 2nd best fielder (behind ponting for mine) and handy bowler (bowling both offies and med pace)

Clarke - youngest player in the side by about 5 or 6 years, attacking batsman, still maturing but has all the shots, alot of potential - also a great fielder and handy bowler (1 4wi and 1 5wi)


Hayden - Mr Run machine, AB medalist, great fielder - batting average is 42 and SR nearly 80.

Hoggy is a solid bowling all rounder, not too many can pick his wrongun and contributes well with the bat on occasion.

as for Ponting - his statsmay not have changed that much but he has matured a hell of alot and captains the side brilliantly.



so overall the batting is better, the bowling better and the fielding better... and the south African side if they were so much better, would not have lost twice in the space of 2 weeks to the same side... there is no way you can be a good side if you cant close out close games (they were also beaten by zimbabwe during the group stage)

 

[Swervy]

Dale a world class ODI player :S:S:S

30 matches, 32 wickets at 30.59

Harvey

71 matches, 81 wickets (4 4wi) at 30.02 - and hes handy with teh bat occasionally.


the Waughs were both good.

Moody - batting average 23, bowling 38.... useful but i wouldn't say very good.

BJ - batting average 13, bowling average 45.... worse on both parts than moody

Flem - good bowler - averaged 25, slightly expensive @ 4.41 per over but overall a good bowler

Reiffel - good bowler also, average 29, high SR but excellent economy at 3.92



and the players gained

Dizzy - average just under 25, arguably the best going around atm

Brett Lee - average 22.14, excellent SR and slightly expensive economy at 4.67, but takes alot of wickets and intimidates batsmen

Symonds - averaged 45 or soemthing with the bat since teh start of teh world cup, one of the best hitters of the ball anywhere - worlds 2nd best fielder (behind ponting for mine) and handy bowler (bowling both offies and med pace)

Clarke - youngest player in the side by about 5 or 6 years, attacking batsman, still maturing but has all the shots, alot of potential - also a great fielder and handy bowler (1 4wi and 1 5wi)


Hayden - Mr Run machine, AB medalist, great fielder - batting average is 42 and SR nearly 80.

Hoggy is a solid bowling all rounder, not too many can pick his wrongun and contributes well with the bat on occasion.

as for Ponting - his statsmay not have changed that much but he has matured a hell of alot and captains the side brilliantly.



so overall the batting is better, the bowling better and the fielding better... and the south African side if they were so much better, would not have lost twice in the space of 2 weeks to the same side... there is no way you can be a good side if you cant close out close games (they were also beaten by zimbabwe during the group stage)

i agree with pretty much everything here...just one thing..SA didnt lose to Australia twice in 99WC, the semi final was actually a tied game...something a lot of people seem to forget.

But yeah, I cannot see how SA in 99 were superior to the Australians that year

 

[Neil Pickup]

i agree with pretty much everything here...just one thing..SA didnt lose to Australia twice in 99WC, the semi final was actually a tied game...something a lot of people seem to forget.

But yeah, I cannot see how SA in 99 were superior to the Australians that year

Tied, but seeing as they knew full well that a tie was as good as defeat, that really pales into utter insignificance.

 

[Greg Blewett]

Symonds - averaged 45 or soemthing with the bat since teh start of teh world cup, one of the best hitters of the ball anywhere - worlds 2nd best fielder (behind ponting for mine) and handy bowler (bowling both offies and med pace)

Symonds is over-rated with the bat , he hasn't done much to prove himself at the top level one hundred in almost 100 ODI's is nothing special. He CAN be quite a handy bowler though.

I wouldn't rate Ponting as the best fielder in the world anymore, I think there's a few above him now whom have taken that title from him.

Hoggy is a solid bowling all rounder, not too many can pick his wrongun and contributes well with the bat on occasion.

He isn't really too solid, averages 32 with the ball and quite lucky to do so, most of the time the wickets he takes and the lower order batsman.

 

[Richard]

Dale a world class ODI player :S:S:S

30 matches, 32 wickets at 30.59

Harvey

71 matches, 81 wickets (4 4wi) at 30.02 - and hes handy with teh bat occasionally.


the Waughs were both good.

Moody - batting average 23, bowling 38.... useful but i wouldn't say very good.

BJ - batting average 13, bowling average 45.... worse on both parts than moody

Flem - good bowler - averaged 25, slightly expensive @ 4.41 per over but overall a good bowler

Reiffel - good bowler also, average 29, high SR but excellent economy at 3.92



and the players gained

Dizzy - average just under 25, arguably the best going around atm

Brett Lee - average 22.14, excellent SR and slightly expensive economy at 4.67, but takes alot of wickets and intimidates batsmen

Symonds - averaged 45 or soemthing with the bat since teh start of teh world cup, one of the best hitters of the ball anywhere - worlds 2nd best fielder (behind ponting for mine) and handy bowler (bowling both offies and med pace)

Clarke - youngest player in the side by about 5 or 6 years, attacking batsman, still maturing but has all the shots, alot of potential - also a great fielder and handy bowler (1 4wi and 1 5wi)


Hayden - Mr Run machine, AB medalist, great fielder - batting average is 42 and SR nearly 80.

Hoggy is a solid bowling all rounder, not too many can pick his wrongun and contributes well with the bat on occasion.

as for Ponting - his statsmay not have changed that much but he has matured a hell of alot and captains the side brilliantly.



so overall the batting is better, the bowling better and the fielding better... and the south African side if they were so much better, would not have lost twice in the space of 2 weeks to the same side... there is no way you can be a good side if you cant close out close games (they were also beaten by zimbabwe during the group stage)

This whole ill-informed collection is based on the mistaken belief that bowling averages are the important thing, not economy-rates. So what if Dale only averaged 30.59, it's his ER that matters? Hogg is rubbish, he went for 75 in 9 overs and only circumstances conspiring in his favour the following game meant he got anything of the career he has. Ponting's stats haven't changed, so what if he's "more mature"? And so what if he captains the side well (not exactly difficult :rolleyes: ) I never made any referance to that, I was simply dismissing your misguided notion that Ponting is a better player now than he ever was - his brilliance has not increased at all in the recent past. Hayden is far from a run-machine, he's just had one phenominal, very short, spell in the 2002\03 winter. His recent performances have just about kept him in the side. Symonds might have averaged 45 since WC2003 - it doesn't make him a good batsman, he's had, what, 6 years of failure. 1 year of success doesn't make-up for that. Clarke being the youngest player in the side doesn't hide the fact that recent evidence suggests he's not really worth a place. There were plenty better players who've been lost since WC99.
Oh, and Stephen Waugh was an average ODI player and nothing more. However good he was in Tests, that seems to distort some people's memory of his ODI career.

 

[marc71178]

If Adam Dale was such a "great" - how come he only played 30 ODI's?

 

[Craig]

noo, but i have to make sure you can understand it

The ODI sides from back than...(WC squads)

Australia has
lost: Waugh's, Dale, Fleming, BJ, S Lee, Moody and Reiffel

gained: Hayden, Lee, Clarke, Hogg, Gillespie and harvey (i might have missed someone)

Hauritz, Katich, M Hussey, Maher, Haddin, Kasprawicz, Bichel, Watson.

 

[Craig]

If Adam Dale was such a "great" - how come he only played 30 ODI's?

Injuries, there want a spot for him, age, I'm not to sure why.

His rpo was lower then McGrath's :alien8:

 

[Richard]

Adam Dale would have played 100 ODIs at least but for injury. He was a far better bowler than most of Australia's other attempts at the position. Like it or not, he's about 10 times the bowler Lee currently is in ODIs, and better at the First-Class game too.

 

[Craig]

Well ten times as accurate then Lee is.

 

[biased indian]

This australian team is not that good!!!!!!! Reason

They didnt beat india in india (one of the strongest team at home)

They didnt beat india at home (The worst away record team)

W I in 80's was far better than these team.

thay didn't win the numbers that u r counting one good reason
in those days cricket was not played 12 months a year

 

[SirBloody Idiot]

This australian team is not that good!!!!!!! Reason

They didnt beat india in india (one of the strongest team at home)

They didnt beat india at home (The worst away record team)

W I in 80's was far better than these team.

thay didn't win the numbers that u r counting one good reason
in those days cricket was not played 12 months a year

And yet Australia are...Number One....

You remember we didn't lose to India either, no matter what you say, the series was a draw...

 

[age_master]

Adam Dale would have played 100 ODIs at least but for injury. He was a far better bowler than most of Australia's other attempts at the position. Like it or not, he's about 10 times the bowler Lee currently is in ODIs, and better at the First-Class game too.

if he was 10 times the bowler why didn't he take that many wickets - him being good still doen;t make up for the rest of the players though.

 

[Mingster]

You really do defy belief sometimes.
Is that really the best you can do?

Can you prove that Dale is better than Lee 10 TIMES before you say that to other people?

 

[Eclipse]

Adam Dale was a good bowler one of my favorites.

He would never bowl at the death though 90% of the time he would have one 10 over spell and take somthing like 1-25 off ten overs.

Thats very good but he was not that good if he was asked to bowl when the batsman were looking to slog because his line and length rarely changed to accomidate batsman who were sloging.

If you ask me he would get taken for alot more runs if he were bowling today because batsman are more likley to attack the opening bowlers these days.

I remember Ryan Campbell took him apart mercifuly in the OD Domestic final about 4-5 years ago because he decided to go for him right from ball one knowing he usualy picthed the ball in the same area.

 

[aussiefan]

i think the australian team is still te best.

although it is not as strong as it used to be.

some players are not performing to their potential and the new replacements are taking some time to get in.

i think the team of 1999 WC was good and the one of 2003 WC was the best.

The team now has some problems with brett lee , beven, and injuries to some players.

Bradd haddin according to me is not a player to play in the one day side

 

[biased indian]

And yet Australia are...Number One....

You remember we didn't lose to India either, no matter what you say, the series was a draw...

When did i say australia is not number one!!!!!!!!!

i was comparing this team to the 80's WI

and if u didn't lose to india u didn't win either thats what i said!!!!