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View Poll Results: Better bowler

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  • Imran Khan

    26 32.10%
  • Glenn McGrath

    47 58.02%
  • Peter Moore

    8 9.88%
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Thread: Who is better Imran Khan or Glenn Mcgrath?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Now you are suggesting that best batting lineup in the world should be the best against fast bowling, swing bowling, seam bowling, spin and reverse swin g? You are nuts I have to say. It is relative strength of each departments that gives the final result.

    Ex. Great West indian batting line up was fragile against spin, that did not make them better than Indians, who were very strong by then against spin.

    South African batters in late 1990s were ruthless on anything that had considerable pace on it, but they sucked against spin. But at that time they were the second best line up.

    Indian batting lineup is excellent on any surface than when it has lateral movement. But that does not make them worse than the seconmd best batting line up in today's cricket.

    The strengths and weaknesses are relatived to each other
    Your whole point is that reverse swing has somehow been nullified, while I am saying that even a good batting lineup like Australia's fell prey to it recently. I am not suggesting that they are the best at playing it.

    When reverse swing is employed effectively by a true fast bowler nowadays, he will succeed, as Dale Steyn as shown. The sad fact is that there are fewer fast bowlers nowadays in the first place, and nobody approaches the skill at the art as Imran, Waqar and Wasim did. That doesn't mean reverse swing is no longer effective, there are just few effective practitioners of it. Imran would be as successful now with reverse swing as before.
    Last edited by subshakerz; 13-05-2008 at 06:51 AM.

  2. #152
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    Your whole point is that reverse swing has somehow been nullified, while I am saying that even a good batting lineup like Australia's fell prey to it recently. I am not suggesting that they are the best at playing it.
    I said it is not the surprise package it used to be. Now everyone knows about it. Mastering it is another matter. It's easier to master a known entity than an unknown one. Even a player of Bradman's class would have been surprised if he played rteverse swing first up, but would have deviced out a method if he knew what was coming.

    When reverse swing is employed effectively by a true fast bowler nowadays, he will succeed, as Dale Steyn as shown. The sad fact is that there are fewer fast bowlers nowadays in the first place, and nobody approaches the skill at the art as Imran, Waqar and Wasim did. That doesn't mean reverse swing is no longer effective, there are just few effective practitioners of it. Imran would be as successful now with reverse swing as before.
    That may be a cause. Or otherwise Waqar, Wasim and Imran may have aided roughing of the ball using various foreign objects. We cannot exclude that possibility as well.
    Last edited by Migara; 13-05-2008 at 08:14 AM. Reason: wrong grammer
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engle View Post
    So, as an exercise, I checked Imran's and M.Marshall's performance in all matches they bowled against each other.
    .
    Amazingly, in 4 series of 10 matches they contested, Imran garnered the same number of wickets (44 @ 17.82) as Macko (44 wkts @ 21.02), albeit at a lesser average.
    Continuing this exercise (since my curiousity is piqued), Imran comes out ahead of the other greats of his day in matches they bowled together.

    Against Lillee, in 3 series of 8 matches (6 in Aus):
    Imran got 40 wkts @ 24.37, Lillee got 39 wkts @ 27.79

    Against Hadlee, in 3 series of 7 matches(4 in NZ)
    Imran got 31 wkts @ 28.19, Hadlee got 25 wkts @ 35.4

  4. #154
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    Engle,the comparisons you have done with Marshall & Lillee are one of the several reasons I rate Imran as the best bowler ever.

    And anyone who says Imran wouldn't be successful needs to know more abot cricket.Its not just Aussies,I have seen even likes of Lara,Tendulkar,Thorpe,Atapattu,Jayawardene,Kallis, Fleming etc felling prey to reverse swinging deliveries of Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib.Reverse swing is as useful art today as it was yesterera but we have only one or two bowlers in the world who can use it properly.


  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    I said it is not the surprise package it used to be. Now everyone knows about it. Mastering it is another matter. It's easier to master a known entity than an unknown one. Even a player of Bradman's class would have been surprised if he played rteverse swing first up, but would have deviced out a method if he knew what was coming..
    Reverse swing has been known since the 1990s, but Australia's batting lineup (among others) were completely at sea against it in 2005. All modern batsmen are vulnerable against the reverse-swinging ball delivered at high pace. But there are precious few to deliver such lethal balls.

    Reverse swing is not like a mystery ball that looses its effectiveness once you decipher it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    That may be a cause. Or otherwise Waqar, Wasim and Imran may have aided roughing of the ball using various foreign objects. We cannot exclude that possibility as well.
    Almost every bowler from Imran's time tampered with the ball. As Richard said, that doesn't affect the skill of the bowler, you still need the skill to deliver the ball in that condition.

  6. #156
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    All modern batsmen are vulnerable against the reverse-swinging ball delivered at high pace.
    Really, I think it's accurate simply to say that all batsmen (of any time) are vulnerable against the swinging ball delivered at high pace, regardless of whether it's conventional or reverse swing.

    The difference between the two is somewhat overstated, at least as far as the batsmen countering it is concerned. The batsman has to do the same thing regardless of whether the swing is conventional or reverse.

    The real difference between conventional and reverse swing is what the bowler has to do to get it. What it does is essentially the same.

    Of course, the biggest difference is that more conventional-swing than not tends to be out (away from the right-hander). Whereas more reverse-swing than not tends to be in (to the right-hander). But an inswinger is the same to the batsman whether it's a conventional-inswinger or a reverse-inswinger.
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  7. #157
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Mints!!!!

    XXX mints!!!!!

    You Poms love 'em don't ya???? be honest now, c'mon.....
    I love suncream, I love anything really that will help me shine the ball as well as I can.

    As long as it's shining rather than de-shining, I honestly don't really mind whatever the fielders use. If someone can sneak vaseline onto the field to shine the ball, I'll shake his hand and say well played. Don't do it myself, as I find suncream-enhanced sweat a) works perfectly well and b) is generally less likely to be called-out. But I'd have no objection to doing it.

    IMO, anything which helps swing is good.

  8. #158
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    [QUOTE=Richard;1553568]Really, I think it's accurate simply to say that all batsmen (of any time) are vulnerable against the swinging ball delivered at high pace, regardless of whether it's conventional or reverse swing.

    The difference between the two is somewhat overstated, at least as far as the batsmen countering it is concerned. The batsman has to do the same thing regardless of whether the swing is conventional or reverse.
    QUOTE]

    True, but reverse swing delivered at high pace in general tends to swing in late and swing in more than a conventional swinging delivery. Of course, this depends upon the state of the pitch and ball as well...

  9. #159
    International Debutant Slifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engle View Post
    Continuing this exercise (since my curiousity is piqued), Imran comes out ahead of the other greats of his day in matches they bowled together.

    Against Lillee, in 3 series of 8 matches (6 in Aus):
    Imran got 40 wkts @ 24.37, Lillee got 39 wkts @ 27.79

    Against Hadlee, in 3 series of 7 matches(4 in NZ)
    Imran got 31 wkts @ 28.19, Hadlee got 25 wkts @ 35.4
    Imran taking the same number of wkts per tests played together as Marshall proves nothing. Clearly Marshall had much more competiton for wkts than did Imran. Overall Marshall > Imran (as a bowler ) but not by much.
    Cause Slifer said so.........!!!!

  10. #160
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    True, but reverse swing delivered at high pace in general tends to swing in late and swing in more than a conventional swinging delivery. Of course, this depends upon the state of the pitch and ball as well...
    Hmm, while reverse-swing's most famous exponents (Waqar, Gough, etc.) have indeed shown-off devastatingly late inswing on their Yorkers, I could find people who swung the ball in conventionally every bit as deadlily.

    I honestly think it's more a case of the fact that reverse-swing is a rarer art and generally tends to be brilliant \ very good or not at all, whereas you get all sorts of mundane bowlers that bowl inswing with the new-ball and make it look fairly innocuous.

    But I've seen some bowlers swing the new-ball in every bit as dangerously as the old one. It's just you generally have to watch far more bowlers who bowl conventional inswing to find them.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Hmm, while reverse-swing's most famous exponents (Waqar, Gough, etc.) have indeed shown-off devastatingly late inswing on their Yorkers, I could find people who swung the ball in conventionally every bit as deadlily.

    I honestly think it's more a case of the fact that reverse-swing is a rarer art and generally tends to be brilliant \ very good or not at all, whereas you get all sorts of mundane bowlers that bowl inswing with the new-ball and make it look fairly innocuous.

    But I've seen some bowlers swing the new-ball in every bit as dangerously as the old one. It's just you generally have to watch far more bowlers who bowl conventional inswing to find them.
    Spoken like someone who's never faced someone who can reverse it. Seriously, the swing is a bit later and sometimes a bit more exaggerated, yes, but that's not the toughest part about facing it. Any batsman worth his salt watches the ball as the bowler is delivering it or running up and can see which side the shine is on. You can then see which way the ball is likely to swing. When the ball is going reverse, the counter-intuitive nature of which side it 'should' swing based on what you see out of the bowler's hand delays the processes going on in tracking the ball. I'd hazard that would be why batsmen dismissed by a reverse-swinging ball always look like they didn't 'see' the ball and were rushed into the shot.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slifer View Post
    Imran taking the same number of wkts per tests played together as Marshall proves nothing. Clearly Marshall had much more competiton for wkts than did Imran. Overall Marshall > Imran (as a bowler ) but not by much.
    Imran also had a better average, but I agree Marshall is better by Imran by a slight slight degree.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    JBH is right. Seamers and cutters are different deliveries easy to distinguish in bowling methodology by the terminology itself.

    Though this is not the first time that I have come across someone mixing one with the other.
    I realise there's a difference between what someone might be trying to do with different deliveries. However they're terms that are readily mixed when a ball 'cuts' off the seam without the bowler rolling his fingers across the ball.

    As I said in the post before, it was in response to Richard suggesting McGrath bowled mainly 'cutters' for about 3 years...which I found a little ridiculous. I doubt anyone who naturally cut it in to a batsman with a good seam position would bother rolling their fingers across it to try to cut it in. The same bowler bowls the same ball in instances where they need to roll their fingers across it to make it move one way or the other (for me it was away). McGrath doesn't become a 'cutter' when he bowls his leg cutter and then revert back to being a 'seamer' when he bowls his stock delivery. I think the nonsense of all the different terms was where this started.
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  14. #164
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Spoken like someone who's never faced someone who can reverse it. Seriously, the swing is a bit later and sometimes a bit more exaggerated, yes, but that's not the toughest part about facing it. Any batsman worth his salt watches the ball as the bowler is delivering it or running up and can see which side the shine is on. You can then see which way the ball is likely to swing. When the ball is going reverse, the counter-intuitive nature of which side it 'should' swing based on what you see out of the bowler's hand delays the processes going on in tracking the ball. I'd hazard that would be why batsmen dismissed by a reverse-swinging ball always look like they didn't 'see' the ball and were rushed into the shot.
    And any bowler worth his salt spots when a batsman has worked-out how to predict the swing and acts to prevent this.

    I myself do this. Be it covering the ball as I run in, or bowling the odd change-up (I can't bowl inswingers, so I bowl straight balls).

    I've said it a few times, but I'm not completely stupid y'know Corey.

    In any case, with a brand-new ball both sides are shiny.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    And any bowler worth his salt spots when a batsman has worked-out how to predict the swing and acts to prevent this.

    I myself do this. Be it covering the ball as I run in, or bowling the odd change-up (I can't bowl inswingers, so I bowl straight balls).

    I've said it a few times, but I'm not completely stupid y'know Corey.

    In any case, with a brand-new ball both sides are shiny.
    Once you've let go of the ball, the bowler loses control over it. This is more the period of play I was referring to where a batsman will also look for clues as to which side the shine is on and predict which way the ball is going which is further confounded by reverse swing. Anyway, unless you're holding your hand over the ball all the way through your action, you can't prevent a batsman from seeing the shine of the ball on the arm-swing immediately before letting go of the ball. Yes, good batsmen even see that.

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