Who's the better all rounder, Kapil Dev vs Ian Botham?

[Migara]

Two great all rounders, but who would you pick in your team, both ODIs and tests?

Kapil Dev

Batting Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	6s	Ct	St
Tests	131	184	15	5248	163	31.05			8	27	61	64	0
ODIs	225	198	39	3783	175*	23.79	3979	95.07	1	14		71	0

Bowling Tests	131	227	27740	12867	434	9/83	11/146	29.64	2.78	63.9	17	23	2
ODIs	225	221	11202	6945	253	5/43	5/43	27.45	3.71	44.2	3	1	0

Ian Botham

Batting Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	4s	6s	Ct	St
Tests	102	161	6	5200	208	33.54	8565	60.71	14	22	621	67	120	0
ODIs	116	106	15	2113	79	23.21	2671	79.10	0	9	197	44	36	0

Bowling Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	4w	5w	10
Tests	102	168	21815	10878	383	8/34	13/106	28.40	2.99	56.9	17	27	4
ODIs	116	115	6271	4139	145	4/31	4/31	28.54	3.96	43.2	3	0	0

 

[Craig]

Never saw them play TBH so it is hard to judge. Although Dev looks like he was the better ODI all-rounder.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Personally reckon Dev, given Botham's conditions, would match him measure for measure if not surpass him. Says enough that he managed to average 29 bowling with India as a backyard.

 

[weldone]

For ODIs Kapil without any doubt for his explosive batting at no. 6 or 7 and his better economy rate....For tests the selection is a bit tougher...Still Kapil simply because a huge chunk of his bowling feats came in flat or spinning Indian tracks.

 

[Craig]

What sort of support did Dev have and what was their quality like? I ask, more towards the the people who watched them both at their peak (or have a stack load of DVDs from their playing era's).

 

[social]

What sort of support did Dev have and what was their quality like? I ask, more towards the the people who watched them both at their peak (or have a stack load of DVDs from their playing era's).

For much of his career, Dev was by far the greatest threat in his side's attack

You could actually argue that he was more of a one-man band than Hadlee because at least the Kiwi support crew had the benefit of bowling in helpful home conditions.

Dev's support (early Srinath, Prabharkar, Madan Lal etc) had to toil in Indian conditions which made them appear worse than they actually might have been

 

[sudhindra9]

Batham of course

 

[Richard]

Like almost anything concerning Botham, an impossible question to answer in one word. Fortunately, their careers were almost exact parrallels, and Kapil did not change enormously as either bowler nor batsman all 15(?) years he played.

As I've said many times, Botham 1977-1981 was clearly up with the best out-and-out all-round all-rounders (ie, not Garfield Sobers who was obviously a batting-all-rounder for almost all his career) who's ever lived. Only Keith Miller and Imran Khan are on the same plane. Kapil never was, he was the next rung below.

However, after 1984 Botham rarely achieved a great deal, and Kapil was obviously superior. Botham also, essentially, played his last role in 1987 (he did come back for a handful of Tests in 1989, 1991, 1991/92 and 1992), while Kapil was still going pretty well for another 6 years after that.

Essentially, Botham was well clear of Kapil for 4 years, there was another 2-and-a-half when Botham wasn't really a rounded all-rounder (far better at batting than bowling), and then 1984-1987 Kapil was easily better. Then another 6 years when Kapil played, and usually still pretty well, and Botham did not - much. So no prizes for working-out who was better there.

 

[masterblaster]

Great comparison and it's much too hard for me to split them. Although I was only a kid in the very early 90's when I was getting into cricket and both Kapil Dev and Ian Botham were coming to the end of their careers respectively, I'm glad to have caught some of their footage thanks to Fox Sports and the Internet. It's much too hard to split them, Botham was the bigger match winner in my opinion whilst Kapil was probably the better bowler due to his incredible skill even on the flattest tracks.

I miss the early 90's and infact the entire 90's so much

 

[weldone]

Almost everyone in this forum says it is too close a call ... But the vote results are not reflecting that point till now somehow...

 

[masterblaster]

Almost everyone in this forum says it is too close a call ... But the vote results are not reflecting that point till now somehow...

I'll try to even that up a bit. I'm voting Kapil, although it's too close to call.

 

[Richard]

Almost everyone in this forum says it is too close a call ... But the vote results are not reflecting that point till now somehow...

I don't think a definate conclusion can be made. I voted for Botham personally - purely based on the fact that he was devastating for a time, even without the longevity that Kapil achieved.

Did Botham's remarkable success, though short-lived, contribute more than Kapil's long, long career of excellence? I really don't know. Being British, I wouldn't swap the two of them, and the fact that Botham was far from completely useless '84-'87 just tips the scales for my money. However, I don't doubt that had Kapil been transplanted into our team early in his career, he'd have been a hell of a good bowler, very possibly for longer than Botham was.

 

[silentstriker]

At his peak - Botham, certainly. No one really matches Botham at his peak, so went for Botham. People say Kapil got shafted a bit with the conditions he had to play in, but then again, he still averaged 26 at home, so though I think he might have been hurt a little bit playing in India, I don't think India hurt him horribly. Also, his record in England isn't too hot - though he did real well in Australia and the West Indies in the 80s.

 

[Richard]

People say Kapil got shafted a bit with the conditions he had to play in, but then again, he still averaged 26 at home, so though I think he might have been hurt a little bit playing in India, I don't think India hurt him horribly. Also, his record in England isn't too hot

I know, and it's more than a little odd. Nonetheless, it's not quite as poor as it might seem at first glance - Kapil made 4 tours of this country, the last in 1990 when he had a very poor time generally (and he was far from the only one - it was a year of absurdly flat pitches and IIRR a different type of ball too). In the previous 3, however, he didn't do too badly - his overall average, 34, isn't crash-hot, but in 10 games he took:
48-146-5 - decent effort
38-93-3 - not good, not bad
27-83-3 - decent effort
60.5-172-5 - not particularly great but not shocking
53-168-8 - superb effort
36-109-0 - very poor
44-162-2 - very poor again
53-119-5 - very good
37.2-60-3 - good
38-127-2 - very poor

Which really isn't too bad a set of figures. The only thing that's particularly disappointing is the lack of standout (eg, 50-120-11) performances. I still think that had he bowled here regularly, season after season, he'd have done extremely well.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Almost everyone in this forum says it is too close a call ... But the vote results are not reflecting that point till now somehow...

500 people could think it's a close call but all vote the same way. Not that this poll should be close at all.

 

[silentstriker]

Which really isn't too bad a set of figures. The only thing that's particularly disappointing is the lack of standout (eg, 50-120-11) performances. I still think that had he bowled here regularly, season after season, he'd have done extremely well.

If I remember right, he was pretty regular in county cricket though, under Gower.

 

[Richard]

Don't think he played under Gower TBH, but he did play every season between 1981 and 1985, first for Northants (for whom he did moderately in 16 games '81-'83) then for Worcestershire (for whom he did rather better in 24 games '84-'85). Still, for domestic cricket over here, 40 games is not really a "regular". It seems, though, that Kapil took a little while to get the hang of the game over here, but once he did he went very well indeed. In his first 2 seasons for Northants he averaged 48 in 9 games; in his next 3 seasons for both counties he averaged 22.83 in 31.

For the bat with both teams, BTW, he was consistently excellent, averaging over 40 throughout his stay.

 

[Anil]

botham the better test allrounder, kapil the better one day allrounder...overall botham...

 

[Engle]

Botham as an AR could have been picked on the strength of his batting or bowling.
Kapil could never have been picked for batting alone.

Botham for me.

 

[Ikki]

Like almost anything concerning Botham, an impossible question to answer in one word. Fortunately, their careers were almost exact parrallels, and Kapil did not change enormously as either bowler nor batsman all 15(?) years he played.

As I've said many times, Botham 1977-1981 was clearly up with the best out-and-out all-round all-rounders (ie, not Garfield Sobers who was obviously a batting-all-rounder for almost all his career) who's ever lived. Only Keith Miller and Imran Khan are on the same plane. Kapil never was, he was the next rung below.

However, after 1984 Botham rarely achieved a great deal, and Kapil was obviously superior. Botham also, essentially, played his last role in 1987 (he did come back for a handful of Tests in 1989, 1991, 1991/92 and 1992), while Kapil was still going pretty well for another 6 years after that.

Essentially, Botham was well clear of Kapil for 4 years, there was another 2-and-a-half when Botham wasn't really a rounded all-rounder (far better at batting than bowling), and then 1984-1987 Kapil was easily better. Then another 6 years when Kapil played, and usually still pretty well, and Botham did not - much. So no prizes for working-out who was better there.

So, over here Botham and his peak suffice...anyone know what happened to Viv Richards?