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Thread: Who is the second great leg spinner ever?

  1. #16
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manee View Post
    Barnes himself said that he 'spun the ball' rather than cut it.
    He also swung it prodigiously in the air. He was a medium pacer and bowled with the new ball. The 'spinning' the ball is more to do with delivery and action rather than what he was trying to get the ball to do.

    Almost all the early pace bowlers bowled 'off breaks' at very high speeds which were not very different from the 'slower 'off break' bowlers as far as grip and delivery of the ball at release were concerned.

    It would become too nuanced and an exercise in futility if we were to describe the bowlers by the grip alone.

    One sees similar debates on what constitutes a 'wrist spinner' and people write of Murali as a wrist spinner. This is again getting into semantics rather than what the bowler is trying to get the ball to do, which is 'break from the off' which is what off break is supposed to do. Just like a leg break is one which breaks from the leg.

    The off cutters and leg cutters came later with the finger just moving (cutting) across the seam to give the movement off the wicket in a direction different from which the ball would have moved off the seam if it had not been 'cut'.

    In very old texts one finds most references to bowlers as just slow bowler or fast bowler. The difference was probably only in trajectory with the slower bowlers tossing the ball a bit in the air at the time of delivery. That is why so many bowlers we classify as spinners actually opened the attack on so many occasions. The line was hazy and some of the 'spinners' or 'break bowlers, bowled at pretty high pace.

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    Grimmett is remarkable in that he was 30 by his debut & still went on to take more wickets than the Tiger. Against that Tiger's averages in both the test arena & FC cricket are superior and most who saw the two seem to rate him as the better bowler.

    Barnes is an interesting one, I remember a story I read (it's in his cricinfo profile actually) that Bradman rated O'Reilly as the better bowler because he possessed a googly, which Barnes did not. When Sir Neville Cardus put this to Barnes he replied, "It's quite true I never bowled the 'googly'. I never needed it." This certainly suggests he bowled a leg break, but it seems to have been just a part of his considerable armoury rather than his stock delivery.
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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Never really considered Barnes as a bowler who could be classified, personally. He wasn't pure spinner, and he certainly wasn't seamer. I'd never include him in a list of either spinners or seamers, though I consider him better than any of either of them.

    As regards the best spinners, it's so ridiculous the way some people state out-of-hand that Warne is the greatest conventional Leg-Break-stock-ball wristspinner (ie, excluding Muralitharan who is a unique one-off and incomparable to any other wristspinner). He might be, sure, but there's no way he's unequivocally greater than either O'Reilly or Grimmett. Maybe in 10 years' time when the Warne-o-mania has faded more people will start to offer a fairer assessment.

    As SJS mentioned, too, other fine wristspin bowlers included Benaud and Gupte (the most often criminally forgotten). But Abdul Qadir was in many ways a wasted talent.

    Kumble - and, so I hear in recent times (would be interested to hear SJS's words on this as he'll have seen both bowl plenty), Chandrasekhar too - are somewhat different to the "normal" wristspin in that neither were prodigious spinners of the ball. They weren't fingerspinners but they were more like fingerspin than wristspin in one respect. This means I don't rank either up with the Grimmetts, O'Reillys and Warnes, or even Benauds or Guptes, but of course both were excellent bowlers.
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    Barnes is Barnes. Has his own catagory.
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    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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    International Vice-Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    A list of all time great leg spinners might include (in no particular order)

    • Grimmett
    • Orielly
    • Benaud
    • Gupte
    • Chandrashekhar
    • Abdul Qadir
    • Warne
    • Kumble
    i would always find a place for faulkner on any such list. bosanquet deserves a mention for obvious reasons.

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    Shane Warne is himself the 2nd greatest leggie ever because the best ever is Bill O'Reilly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Never really considered Barnes as a bowler who could be classified, personally. He wasn't pure spinner, and he certainly wasn't seamer. I'd never include him in a list of either spinners or seamers, though I consider him better than any of either of them.

    As regards the best spinners, it's so ridiculous the way some people state out-of-hand that Warne is the greatest conventional Leg-Break-stock-ball wristspinner (ie, excluding Muralitharan who is a unique one-off and incomparable to any other wristspinner). He might be, sure, but there's no way he's unequivocally greater than either O'Reilly or Grimmett. Maybe in 10 years' time when the Warne-o-mania has faded more people will start to offer a fairer assessment.

    As SJS mentioned, too, other fine wristspin bowlers included Benaud and Gupte (the most often criminally forgotten). But Abdul Qadir was in many ways a wasted talent.

    Kumble - and, so I hear in recent times (would be interested to hear SJS's words on this as he'll have seen both bowl plenty), Chandrasekhar too - are somewhat different to the "normal" wristspin in that neither were prodigious spinners of the ball. They weren't fingerspinners but they were more like fingerspin than wristspin in one respect. This means I don't rank either up with the Grimmetts, O'Reillys and Warnes, or even Benauds or Guptes, but of course both were excellent bowlers.
    How was Abdul Qadir a wasted talent?He was as good on Pakistani wickets as Kumble has been India but as worst as any worst bowler when playing outside Pakistan.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    i would always find a place for faulkner on any such list. bosanquet deserves a mention for obvious reasons.
    Forgot about Faulkner actually TBH. Faulkner, Vogler and Schwarz were none exactly bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    A list of all time great leg spinners might include (in no particular order)

    • Grimmett
    • Orielly
    • Benaud
    • Gupte
    • Chandrashekhar
    • Abdul Qadir
    • Warne
    • Kumble
    You see now I know I would of missed at least a few of them. As for Qadir, I remember the ESPN 50 greatest cricketers of all-time thing, and Qadir did not even make the cut
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boobidy View Post
    Bradman never had to face quicks like Sharma and Irfan Pathan. He wouldn't of lasted a ball against those 2, not to mention a spinner like Sehwag.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BhupinderSingh View Post
    How was Abdul Qadir a wasted talent?He was as good on Pakistani wickets as Kumble has been India but as worst as any worst bowler when playing outside Pakistan.
    He wasn't really as good as Kumble at home, though, that's the thing - Kumble went for series after series of bowling well at home, Qadir only did it on a few occasions here and there.

    In any case, from what I've read Qadir had several things over Kumble - he could spin the ball more, without losing that much in accuracy. He didn't have Kumble's speed, but that's about it. Hence, I've always thought that Qadir, had more things gone right for him, could have ended-up a far better bowler than Kumble. Not only done better at home, but also put-in more than the occasional performance away too.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    You see now I know I would of missed at least a few of them. As for Qadir, I remember the ESPN 50 greatest cricketers of all-time thing, and Qadir did not even make the cut
    Can't say I'm surprised. Without thinking about it too much, I reckon I could have a decent stab at naming 50 better bowlers than him. 25 would be very, very easy.

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    World Traveller Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Can't say I'm surprised. Without thinking about it too much, I reckon I could have a decent stab at naming 50 better bowlers than him. 25 would be very, very easy.
    Your ready to put your money where your mouth is? I'll be interested to see at least 25-50 bowlers better then Qadir.

    I'm not talking up Qadir or anything as I never saw him bowl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Your ready to put your money where your mouth is? I'll be interested to see at least 25-50 bowlers better then Qadir.

    I'm not talking up Qadir or anything as I never saw him bowl.
    25 off the top of my head - Lindwall, Davidson, Warne, McGrath, O’Reilly, Grimmett, Lilliee, Hadlee, Marshall, Holding, Botham, Donald, Roberts, Lohmann, Ambrose, Larwood, Veirty, Akram, Imran, Waqar, Miller, Trueman, Barnes, Garner, Murali, Laker etc.
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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Your ready to put your money where your mouth is? I'll be interested to see at least 25-50 bowlers better then Qadir.

    I'm not talking up Qadir or anything as I never saw him bowl.
    25 off the top of my head, and not in any particularly ordered order...

    Barnes, Marshall, Hadlee, Donald, Imran Khan, Ambrose, McGrath, Lindwall, Lillee, Davidson, Garner, Wasim Akram, Holding, Bishop, Statham, Bedser, Trueman, Adcock, Heine, Pollock (P), Pollock (S), Waqar Younis, Miller, Johnston, Fazal Mahmood.

    And all of these bowlers were exceptional ones. There are many more "good" bowlers who I'd also put above without much thought required.

    EDIT: blast that Zachary Gelman for beating me to it.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    He also swung it prodigiously in the air. He was a medium pacer and bowled with the new ball. The 'spinning' the ball is more to do with delivery and action rather than what he was trying to get the ball to do.

    Almost all the early pace bowlers bowled 'off breaks' at very high speeds which were not very different from the 'slower 'off break' bowlers as far as grip and delivery of the ball at release were concerned.

    It would become too nuanced and an exercise in futility if we were to describe the bowlers by the grip alone.

    One sees similar debates on what constitutes a 'wrist spinner' and people write of Murali as a wrist spinner. This is again getting into semantics rather than what the bowler is trying to get the ball to do, which is 'break from the off' which is what off break is supposed to do. Just like a leg break is one which breaks from the leg.

    The off cutters and leg cutters came later with the finger just moving (cutting) across the seam to give the movement off the wicket in a direction different from which the ball would have moved off the seam if it had not been 'cut'.

    In very old texts one finds most references to bowlers as just slow bowler or fast bowler. The difference was probably only in trajectory with the slower bowlers tossing the ball a bit in the air at the time of delivery. That is why so many bowlers we classify as spinners actually opened the attack on so many occasions. The line was hazy and some of the 'spinners' or 'break bowlers, bowled at pretty high pace.
    It is very semantic though, because pace bowlers, as a category do not spin the ball.

    PS: I know it is ridiculous to compare the two - but did Barnes bowl something similar to what Munaf Patel bowled in the final day against Pakistan in Bangalore where he was bowling off breaks at about 70mph?
    The speed at which a fielding team gets through the innings is overrated.

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