Who is the second great leg spinner ever?

[Sanz]

Gooch played from 1990-1995 and Flower played from 1992 onwards. How are they not contemporaries?

Thank You for posting the meaning of the word contemporary, I wish you had read and understood the meaning of it.

Based on your understanding of the word contemporary, Donald and KapilDev are contemporaries. Vengsarkar and Brian Lara are contemporaries, Richards and Tendulkar are contemporaries too.

Guess what I have had enough of your BS.

[Ikki]

Thank You for posting the meaning of the word contemporary, I wish you had read and understood the meaning of it.

Based on your understanding of the word contemporary, Donald and KapilDev are contemporaries. Vengsarkar and Brian Lara are contemporaries, Richards and Tendulkar are contemporaries too.

Guess what I have had enough of your BS.

Your posts are increasingly bordering on the idiotic recently.

Let's start from the beginning since you have a history of misreading things or misunderstanding them.

For the comparison I made about the 90s Zimbabwe and S.Africa of the 1930s, I used the 10 year frame for each point I made.

Now, some genius thought that England in the 90s were weaker than Zimbabwe in the 90s. Who did he name as better batsmen? Flower, Goodwin and Johnson. Flower, yes, he is representative of the Zimbabweans squad in the 90s. Goodwin and Johnson have played few tests and did so in about a 2 year span at the END of the decade.

Firstly, how do these 2 players represent Zimbabwe's strength in the 90s? Neither played long enough and one only averages 24 with the bat. You telling me there seriously wasn't an English player as good as Johnson?

Secondly, when I argue that England WERE better I use examples like Gooch, because he played for 5 years in that decade and 45 tests - this being more than Johnson and Goodwin combined.

Thirdly, you state that Gooch is not a contemporary to Flower...let's just agree. What does it change? I conceded before that I doubt England had a batsman of Flower's strength in the 90s. Does that make Zimbabwe stronger than England? No it doesn't, so the point is moot anyway. That Flower, and two players who barely had a test career - one that didn't even have a good average - made Zimbabwe better than England is a joke. What makes it doubly funny is to see you try and purvey that comedy as truth.

Fourthly and finally, Flower himself, by your own measure, is not a contemporary of Goodwin or Johnson. Gooch played in more years together with Flower than those two. So...the whole argument is squashed before it even begins.

Read the whole argument then give your two cents. That way I don't have to come and clarify everything for you as if you were some kid.

[pasag]

Kazoholic, did you get the email sent recently?

[Ikki]

Nope. I joined here a while ago. It probably isn't my regular email.

Edit: I just read it. I think the request is more than fair.

[Julian87]

Clarrie.

[DaRick]

For now, Bill O' Reilly takes on the mantle as the second greatest leg-spinner ever, with Warne (until I learn more about O' Reilly) just ahead. If O' Reilly was better, then, like I've said before, he must have been truly captivating, for, IMO, no bowler I've ever been privy to has been as enthralling to watch as Warne.

[roseboy64]

Richard and weldone are wrong on the bastmen issue IMO. Would rather have more time to bat than field and the bowler with the faster SR ensures that.

[Richard]

Obviously, you'd rather a SR of 55 than 100. But we're not talking absurdly large gaps like that.

[Migara]

Now, some genius thought that England in the 90s were weaker than Zimbabwe in the 90s. Who did he name as better batsmen? Flower, Goodwin and Johnson. Flower, yes, he is representative of the Zimbabweans squad in the 90s. Goodwin and Johnson have played few tests and did so in about a 2 year span at the END of the decade.

Gooch averaging 42.58, and Goodwin 42.84, I am puzzled who has a better average?

Then In first 19 matches Gooch averaged 31.93, and Good wn averaged 42.84, and that also batting in a minnow side.

Then rant about Neil Johnson, and I am going to compare him to "great" English all rounder Andrew Flintoff. Since Johnson was not given time to improve, I am using performances in their first 13 matches.

Johnson Batting Avg - 24.2, Bowling Avg - 39.6
Flintoff Batting Avg - 18.85, Bowling Avg 46.65

Now that's now Johnson stands against his English contemparies.

[Migara]

Firstly, how do these 2 players represent Zimbabwe's strength in the 90s? Neither played long enough and one only averages 24 with the bat. You telling me there seriously wasn't an English player as good as Johnson?

Point 1, Johnson and Goodwin weren't allowed to play long enough. With the talent they had, they would have easily improved.

Point 2, Goodwin was the 3rd main batsman Zimbabwe had after Houghton and Flower, and Johnson was their top all rounder before Streak started performing with the bat. And you have omitted name of Flower as well. A. Flower, Goodwin, Johnson, Streak and G. Flower were the core material of the best Zimbabwean side ever to play cricket (Add Paul Strang as well, a rare sow bowling all rounder). I ahve mentioned names of three to make that core. So how it is not representing the strength of the ZIM side?

[Migara]

Fourthly and finally, Flower himself, by your own measure, is not a contemporary of Goodwin or Johnson. Gooch played in more years together with Flower than those two. So...the whole argument is squashed before it even begins

Good win and Johnson played 100% of their career with Flower. Neither Flower's nor Gooch's careers overlap 100%

[Migara]

For the comparison I made about the 90s Zimbabwe and S.Africa of the 1930s, I used the 10 year frame for each point I made.

You have sadly mistaken that ZIM and SAF had totally diffent political background by then, both involving racism. In SAF racism was favborable as majority of cricketers were white skinned. In ZIM it was un favorable as this time it was against majority of fair skinned cricketers.These 10 year period as a whole totaly idiotic to be compared.

[Ikki]

Gooch averaging 42.58, and Goodwin 42.84, I am puzzled who has a better average?

Then In first 19 matches Gooch averaged 31.93, and Good wn averaged 42.84, and that also batting in a minnow side.

Then rant about Neil Johnson, and I am going to compare him to "great" English all rounder Andrew Flintoff. Since Johnson was not given time to improve, I am using performances in their first 13 matches.

Johnson Batting Avg - 24.2, Bowling Avg - 39.6
Flintoff Batting Avg - 18.85, Bowling Avg 46.65

Now that's now Johnson stands against his English contemparies.

First of all, Gooch's career starts in the mid 70s, that's why his average is 42. In the 90s, which is when the comparison is supposed to encapsulate, and is relevant, he averages 50+ over 5 years and 45 tests. Regardless, the only similarity between Gooch and Goodwin are their averages. Goodwin is not of the same stature as Gooch simply because he averages similarly over 19 Tests.

Compare Johnson to other batsmen, like Thorpe. You're still far behind. You simply will not convince Johnson was going to be a good batsmen. The fact that Flintoff's first 13 tests he bowled poorly AND batted poorly yet became a great all-rounder later proves this point.

Still, regardless, we are talking about Zimbabwe in the 90s. Neither Goodwin nor Johnson played enough to represent Zimbabwe enough nor did they continue afterwards.

[Ikki]

Point 1, Johnson and Goodwin weren't allowed to play long enough. With the talent they had, they would have easily improved.

That's irrelevant. Had they continued the rest of their careers would have been in the 2000s making it post 90s - nothing to do with Zimbabwe in the 90s.

Point 2, Goodwin was the 3rd main batsman Zimbabwe had after Houghton and Flower, and Johnson was their top all rounder before Streak started performing with the bat. And you have omitted name of Flower as well. A. Flower, Goodwin, Johnson, Streak and G. Flower were the core material of the best Zimbabwean side ever to play cricket (Add Paul Strang as well, a rare sow bowling all rounder). I ahve mentioned names of three to make that core. So how it is not representing the strength of the ZIM side?

Even the S.African side of the 1930s had similar, if not better batsmen, throughout their lineup. The line-up you prescribe above has 1 batsman that averages in the 50s, 1 in the 40s (albeit with not that many tests played) and the rest averages in the 20s. This is NOT a strong batting line up. This is NOT an average strength batting line-up. This is a thoroughly WEAK batting line-up only superior to a team like Bangladesh. I also just checked the above line-up, it only played 13 times between 1998-2000 - again, not representative of Zimbabwe in the 90s.

[Ikki]

Good win and Johnson played 100% of their career with Flower. Neither Flower's nor Gooch's careers overlap 100%

So? By Sanz's definition they are not contemporaries. Flower starts 6-7 years earlier. Percentage means what? Once Flower retired and had they kept playing the percentage would have fallen again.