Who's better, Lillee or Hadlee?

[funnygirl]

Lillee had better moustache

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I'm glad that you've just knowingly used a logical fallacy as the basis for your argument....

I'm glad that you're glad.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I'm glad that you've just knowingly used a logical fallacy as the basis for your argument....

I'm glad that flaunting first-year philosophy jargon willy-nilly is your idea of quelling dissent. C_C-esque.

 

[Ikki]

Hadlee.

Better in every aspect bar pace IMO. And sorry, this may sound one eyed but just because someone is modest and says such and such is better than them it doesn't mean they are. Otherwise their opinion would have to be fact for all facets of life, never mind cricket, really.

It's not that somebody was modest - meaning only one - most of the bowlers, and batsmen (Like Viv) in Lillee's era regarded him as the best ever.

 

[Ikki]

This is an interesting point. Others would argue that Lillee or whoever was better because they had more competition for wickets. Now, Chatfield and Cairns both averaged 32. This isn't brilliant but its not bad either. They had a fair amount of 5-fers between them (cbf looking it up atm). They were decent bowlers, not rubbish, not great, just good decent bowlers (though Chatfield in ODIs was an absolute gun).

Average isn't the criteria here when talking about 5fers, it's strike rate. Hadlee's help was very economical building pressure by keeping the run-rate down, they were just poor wicket takers. That is the reason for Hadlee's bigger number of hauls and more wickets.

So really whilst Hadlee was the star (and as an all time great that isn't surprising) the others were good bowlers who nabbed 5-fers at reasonable intervals and ensured that, if Hadlee ever had a rare bad day, they got the job done and when Hadlee was on fire they kept the pressure on at the other end.

No, they didn't have their fair share of 5fers, they were pretty poor at it actually.

Lillee had a period where there was competition with Thommo and a period where he was a lone ranger like Hadlee. Lillee did both.

Lillee with Thomson - Tests.26 Avg. 26.26 SR. 54.1 ER. 2.9
Lillee without Thomson - Tests.44 Avg. 22.74 SR. 50.9 ER. 2.67

 

[bagapath]

Manoj Prabhakar getting 3 votes! interesting. To be fair to the man with a moustache, he was a useful all rounder, and India will die for a one like him at this point of time.

no india wont. pathan is a superior option to him for the country.bowls far better, bats definitely better as far as we know he has not fixed any amtches yet.

back to topic.

hadlee - lillee is such a difficult poll. i hope someone has read the opinions of batsmen who faced both at their peak and share it with us.

 

[silentstriker]

I'm glad that flaunting first-year philosophy jargon willy-nilly is your idea of quelling dissent. C_C-esque.

Quelling dissent? Simply pointing out (again), that you can argue what you want, but misrepresenting other people's argument is obnoxious. If you're going to argue against someone, at least argue against what they actually said. I don't quite understand how that's quelling dissent. It's a legitimate response to his characterization of some people's position. And if he is doing it on purpose, then it is nothing more than trolling.

 

[silentstriker]

Average isn't the criteria here when talking about 5fers, it's strike rate. Hadlee's help was very economical building pressure by keeping the run-rate down, they were just poor wicket takers. That is the reason for Hadlee's bigger number of hauls and more wickets.



No, they didn't have their fair share of 5fers, they were pretty poor at it actually.

Lillee had a period where there was competition with Thommo and a period where he was a lone ranger like Hadlee. Lillee did both.

Lillee with Thomson - Tests.26 Avg. 26.26 SR. 54.1 ER. 2.9
Lillee without Thomson - Tests.44 Avg. 22.74 SR. 50.9 ER. 2.67

Yea, thinking about it again, I might change my mind. As I said before, it was already close as to go the either way.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Quelling dissent? Simply pointing out (again), that you can argue what you want, but misrepresenting other people's argument is obnoxious. If you're going to argue against someone, at least argue against what they actually said. I don't quite understand how that's quelling dissent. It's a legitimate response to his characterization of some people's position. And if he is doing it on purpose, then it is nothing more than trolling.

Hardly misrepresentation when some people on this board openly admit that they go by stats alone when making a judgement.

 

[silentstriker]

Hardly misrepresentation when some people on this board openly admit that they go by stats alone when making a judgement.

I have not heard that statement from anyone, but even if it were true, it still would be a misrepresentation because that's not what you said in your original statement, because in that, you took only one stat (and lack of it) and extrapolated it to be people's entire position on the subject.

Either way, it was a misrepresentation.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I have not heard that statement from anyone, but even if it were true, it still would be a misrepresentation because that's not what you said in your original statement, because in that, you took only one stat (and lack of it) and extrapolated it to be people's entire position on the subject.

Either way, it was a misrepresentation.

What completely irrelevant pretentious mumbo jumbo. Not to mention a misrepresentation.

If anything was a misrepresentation - and far more insulting to the voters - it was the original suggestion that almost all Aussies will vote for Lillee and almost all Kiwis will vote for Hadlee.

 

[social]

Best bowlers I've ever seen are Imran, Wasim, Marshall and McGrath

Best bowling performance - Hadlee at the Gabba

Biggest influence = Lillee because he was the first express bowler that slowed down and mastered everything

That's why some (not me) regard him as the best

 

[PhoenixFire]

What completely irrelevant pretentious mumbo jumbo. Not to mention a misrepresentation.

Lol at anyone saying SS, who is one of the most eloquent and knowledgable people on here, talks mumo-jumbo.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Lol at anyone saying SS, who is one of the most eloquent and knowledgable people on here, talks mumo-jumbo.

What he said was total crap, but if you're fooled by long words and impressively constructed sentences then you've got a lot to learn about eloquence and knowledge.

 

[Richard]

Is that AME Roberts? Or is there another Anderson Roberts I am unaware of?

Yep. That's the one.

Better-known, of course, by the shortening of Anderson to Andy.

 

[Richard]

If anything was a misrepresentation - and far more insulting to the voters - it was the original suggestion that almost all Aussies will vote for Lillee and almost all Kiwis will vote for Hadlee.

We'll see how misrepresentative it is. So far, the number of Aussies who've voted Hadlee number zero, and the number of Kiwis who've voted Lillee number zero. There is one who fits into both camps, which rather muddies the waters, however.

 

[Richard]

It's not that somebody was modest - meaning only one - most of the bowlers, and batsmen (Like Viv) in Lillee's era regarded him as the best ever.

In the case of Hadlee, it is that someone was modest. That may not be the case with everyone, but it is with Hadlee.

 

[Prince EWS]

So far, the number of Aussies who've voted Hadlee number zero

Errr.. DWTA.

 

[Richard]

You've ceased to qualify as pure Aussie in cricket terms IMO.

I don't qualify as pure English in said terms either, BTW.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

We'll see how misrepresentative it is. So far, the number of Aussies who've voted Hadlee number zero, and the number of Kiwis who've voted Lillee number zero. There is one who fits into both camps, which rather muddies the waters, however.

I know. But all I was saying is that you could easily read into your post that national bias is the only reason for voting that way even though you didn't say it. Just like I didn't say that Lillee not bowling in India is the only reason people don't vote for him, which is what is being implied I said. Lillee's lack of success in India and Pakistan is often used to beat him with and that is the one and only point I made in that direction. And there are people, like Perm for instance who have openly admitted that stats mean more to them than anything else when making a judgement on players they haven't seen.