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View Poll Results: Who is the better bowler?

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  • Lillee

    20 25.97%
  • Hadlee

    46 59.74%
  • I don't know

    4 5.19%
  • It is Manoj Prabhakar

    7 9.09%
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Thread: Who's better, Lillee or Hadlee?

  1. #31
    Hall of Fame Member Smudge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manee View Post
    I have read that Hadlee's decision to cut down on pace came very early in his international career - after his first international match, IIRC.
    He was still a tearaway (attempted one) until the late 70s at least. I'm pretty sure the "pop-gun" run-up (as described by NZ cricket writer Don Cameron) was Hadlee's staple from season 1980/81.

  2. #32
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    Hadlee would have to sit a pew or two behind Lillee
    He never garned the sort of awe thay Lillee did in his heyday.

    Lillee was the complete fast bowler.
    Hadlee wasn't.
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  3. #33
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engle View Post
    Hadlee would have to sit a pew or two behind Lillee
    He never garned the sort of awe thay Lillee did in his heyday.

    Lillee was the complete fast bowler.
    Hadlee wasn't.
    Much as I agree with you in terms of who was better, it's a fairly, uh, geriatric reasoning you're wheeling out.

    Facing Hadlee in comparison to his partners was 'like facing the World XI at one end and the Ilford second XI at the other (forget the source).' Farcical to suggest that Hadlee didn't have an aura of his own by his heyday, even simply by dint of him playing Atlas to NZ's sky.

    Moreover, even Bacchus Marsh admitted Lillee's most glaring weakness (yes, he had a weakness) was his lack of a reliable yorker. Hadlee had no such qualms in surpassing his hero there.
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  4. #34
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    I think it's really close, I could see it either way. I voted for Hadlee.
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  5. #35
    State Regular Indipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Anyway, I've always been aware that Hadlee thought Lillee superior to himself. This, I've always maintained, is inevitable - Hadlee modelled himself on Lillee and almost never will the pupil believe himself superior to the master. See the fact that Michael Holding rates Anderson Roberts better than himself, something I imagine near enough no-one else would do.
    Is that AME Roberts? Or is there another Anderson Roberts I am unaware of?
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  6. #36
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I have to say, though, I foresee a pretty depressing case of almost all Aussies voting Lillee and almost all Kiwis voting Hadlee
    Well my vote certainly adds fuel to the fire.

    Or perhaps it just answers GIMH's question better than I'm willing to admit.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Well my vote certainly adds fuel to the fire.

    Or perhaps it just answers GIMH's question better than I'm willing to admit.

    Although it might be influenced by nationalistic bias, it will also suffer from the ill-informed Statsguru generation who remember neither but can produce a spreadsheet showing Lillee never bowled in India so can't possibly be superior to bowlers who did.

  8. #38
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    Although it might be influenced by nationalistic bias, it will also suffer from the ill-informed Statsguru generation who remember neither but can produce a spreadsheet showing Lillee never bowled in India so can't possibly be superior to bowlers who did.
    Nice strawman.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    Nice strawman.
    I'm glad you agree (although straw man is two words.)

  10. #40
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    I'm glad you agree (although straw man is two words.)
    I'm glad that you've just knowingly used a logical fallacy as the basis for your argument....

  11. #41
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    Lillee had better moustache
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    I'm glad that you've just knowingly used a logical fallacy as the basis for your argument....
    I'm glad that you're glad.

  13. #43
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    I'm glad that you've just knowingly used a logical fallacy as the basis for your argument....
    I'm glad that flaunting first-year philosophy jargon willy-nilly is your idea of quelling dissent. C_C-esque.

  14. #44
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Hadlee.

    Better in every aspect bar pace IMO. And sorry, this may sound one eyed but just because someone is modest and says such and such is better than them it doesn't mean they are. Otherwise their opinion would have to be fact for all facets of life, never mind cricket, really.
    It's not that somebody was modest - meaning only one - most of the bowlers, and batsmen (Like Viv) in Lillee's era regarded him as the best ever.
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  15. #45
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    This is an interesting point. Others would argue that Lillee or whoever was better because they had more competition for wickets. Now, Chatfield and Cairns both averaged 32. This isn't brilliant but its not bad either. They had a fair amount of 5-fers between them (cbf looking it up atm). They were decent bowlers, not rubbish, not great, just good decent bowlers (though Chatfield in ODIs was an absolute gun).
    Average isn't the criteria here when talking about 5fers, it's strike rate. Hadlee's help was very economical building pressure by keeping the run-rate down, they were just poor wicket takers. That is the reason for Hadlee's bigger number of hauls and more wickets.

    So really whilst Hadlee was the star (and as an all time great that isn't surprising) the others were good bowlers who nabbed 5-fers at reasonable intervals and ensured that, if Hadlee ever had a rare bad day, they got the job done and when Hadlee was on fire they kept the pressure on at the other end.
    No, they didn't have their fair share of 5fers, they were pretty poor at it actually.

    Lillee had a period where there was competition with Thommo and a period where he was a lone ranger like Hadlee. Lillee did both.

    Lillee with Thomson
    - Tests.26 Avg. 26.26 SR. 54.1 ER. 2.9
    Lillee without Thomson - Tests.44 Avg. 22.74 SR. 50.9 ER. 2.67
    Last edited by Ikki; 04-05-2008 at 11:10 AM.

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