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Thread: Unrecognised Match Tribute

  1. #1
    International Regular aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Unrecognised Match Tribute

    I still don’t think its fair that the ICC World XI vs Australia is counted as legitimate test records when the 1971-72 World XI vs Australia and the 1977-79 Packer WSC Supertests are not..........

    Accordingly, I thought I’d see what the records would look like if they were counted.

    I’ll start with some Aussie “Greats”

    Greg Chappell
    Supertests: 17 Tests, 1840 runs @ 63.45, HS 246*, 7 centuries, 5 fifties
    Official: 87 Tests, 7110 runs @ 53.86, HS 247*, 24 centuries, 31 fifties
    Combined: 104 Tests, 8950 runs @ 55.59, HS 247*, 31 centuries, 36 fifties
    Would be 4th Highest Australian Run Scorer (currently 9th)

    Ian Chappell
    Supertests: 19 Tests, 1527 runs @ 46.27, HS 145, 5 centuries, 6 fifties
    Official: 75 Tests, 5345 runs @ 42.42, HS 196, 14 centuries, 26 fifties
    Combined: 94 Tests, 6872 runs @ 43.22, HS 196, 19 centuries, 32 fifties
    Would be 11th Highest Australian Run Scorer between Bradman and Harvey (currently 14th)

    Rod Marsh
    Supertests: 20 Tests, 63 Dismissals, 717 runs @ 21.73, HS 102*, 1 century, 3 fifties
    Official: 96 Tests, 355 Dismissals, 3633 runs @ 26.52, HS 132, 3 centuries, 16 fifties
    Combined: 116 Tests, 418 Dismissals, 4350 runs @ 25.59, HS 132, 4 centuries, 19 fifties
    Would hold Australian Record Dismissals (Gilchrist 416)

    Dennis Lillee
    Supertests: 18 Tests, 91 wkts @ 25.08, BB 8-29, 8 Fivefor, 1 Tenfor
    Official: 70 Tests, 355 wkts @ 23.92, BB 7-83, 23 Fivefor, 7 Tenfor
    Combined: 88 Tests, 446 wkts @ 24.16, BB 8-29, 31 Fivefor, 8 Tenfor
    Would have held World record for 14 more years (Currently 1981-86)
    Last edited by aussie tragic; 01-05-2008 at 01:30 PM.

  2. #2
    International Regular aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Viv Richards
    Supertests: 14 Tests, 1283 runs @ 55.78, HS 145*, 4 centuries, 4 fifties
    Official: 121 Tests, 8540 runs @ 50.24, HS 291, 24 centuries, 45 fifties
    Combined: 135 Tests, 9823 runs @ 50.90, HS 291, 28 centuries, 49 fifties
    WI 2nd Highest Run Scorer (same)

    Here is the WSC Link: http://content-gulf.cricinfo.com/wor...ry/323724.html


    EDIT: yeah, my 1500th post
    Last edited by aussie tragic; 01-05-2008 at 11:34 PM.

  3. #3
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    The Australia-World XI rubbish of 2005/06 shouldn't be a Test, no way (IMO) but the WSC games should be such even less. They were private games, akin to matches on Sir Paul Getty's lawn. Personally I'm afraid I've never given a stuff about them - the players knew what they were getting themselves in for, and chose money over the game. That's not an illegitimate choice, I imagine most would've and would make it. The recent ICL furore shows it's a problem that hasn't gone away. But everyone knew these games were meaningless as far as career input was concerned, and that's the way it should stay.

    World XI games (be they in 1970, 1971/72 or 2005/06 or any other time) are bad, but at least they were played "in routine" as alternative to what would normally be considered Tests. At least one normal Test team was involved.

    But anything with "Rest Of" in the title (or even inaccurately omitted) should never be given international status or even thought of, AFAIC.
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    International Regular aussie tragic's Avatar
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    So at least we agree that the Australia vs World XI game of 1971-72 should count if the 2000’s version did and under those guidelines we’d have:

    Greg Chappell
    Supertests: 3 Tests, 425 runs @ 106.25, HS 197*, 1 century, 2 fifties
    Official: 87 Tests, 7110 runs @ 53.86, HS 247*, 24 centuries, 31 fifties
    Combined: 90 Tests, 7535 runs @ 55.40, HS 247*, 25 centuries, 33 fifties

    Ian Chappell
    Supertests: 5 Tests, 634 runs @ 79.25, HS 145*, 4 centuries, 1 fifty
    Official: 75 Tests, 5345 runs @ 42.42, HS 196, 14 centuries, 26 fifties
    Combined: 80 Tests, 5979 runs @ 44.62, HS 196, 18 centuries, 27 fifties

    Rod Marsh
    Supertests: 5 Tests, 11 Dismissals, 186 runs @ 31.00, HS 77*, 0 centuries, 2 fifties
    Official: 96 Tests, 355 Dismissals, 3633 runs @ 26.52, HS 132, 3 centuries, 16 fifties
    Combined: 101 Tests, 366 Dismissals, 3819 runs @ 26.71, HS 132, 3 centuries, 18 fifties

    Dennis Lillee
    Supertests: 4 Tests, 24 wkts @ 20.08, BB 8-29, 2 Fivefor, 1 Tenfor
    Official: 70 Tests, 355 wkts @ 23.92, BB 7-83, 23 Fivefor, 7 Tenfor
    Combined: 74 Tests, 379 wkts @ 23.68, BB 8-29, 25 Fivefor, 8 Tenfor

    I do disagree that the WSC teams were not test class though as the Aussie WSC team was the 1977 Test Team + Test fringe players and they would have thrashed the 1978-79 ACB XI (just like England did)
    Last edited by aussie tragic; 01-05-2008 at 02:12 PM.


  5. #5
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Ive no strong opinions either way on this topic. But if rebel WSC cricket games are being included then the rebel Tests in SA need to be included. The South Africans viewed them as Tests.
    If I only just posted the above post, please wait 5 mins before replying as there will be edits

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    It'd be quite wrong for the SA-vs-Rebel-team games to be classed Tests IMO. First-Class, yes, I don't have any problem with that - and the ICC's decision to withdraw said status from them in 1993 was utterly useless, pointless and served no purpose. I hope it's put back as it'll stop needless squabbling over the status of some games, as Wisden have refused to implement the ICC-sanctioned changes.

    And as I said - I've always been 100% against WSC games being classed as Tests, because they were completely and totally different. The players were playing for Kerry Packer's franchises, not their countries. This would be like the IPL being a one-day rather than Twenty20 competition and those games being given ODI status.

  7. #7
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie tragic View Post
    So at least we agree that the Australia vs World XI game of 1971-72 should count if the 2000’s version did

    I do disagree that the WSC teams were not test class though as the Aussie WSC team was the 1977 Test Team + Test fringe players and they would have thrashed the 1978-79 ACB XI (just like England did)
    I've always completely discounted games involving Packer-gutted teams (Australia and West Indies) from any consideration (don't consider West Indies' defeat in India or Gavaskar's runs in the series as particularly Test-worthy). But it's vital that they remain Tests, as they were a show of defiance against the Packer Schism.

    I honestly don't care whether the Packer teams were Test-class or not - being Test-class isn't the only credential for Test status (though obviously it's one that is a must for the thing being awarded IMO, hence my distaste for Bangladesh currently having it). An England+South Africa+India team would be Test-class too - doesn't mean I'd want it playing Test cricket.

    As I say, though - I don't think "if 2005/06 counted so should 1971/72 and 1970". I think "because 1970 and 1971/72 didn't count, nor should 2005/06".
    Greg Chappell
    Supertests: 3 Tests, 425 runs @ 106.25, HS 197*, 1 century, 2 fifties
    Official: 87 Tests, 7110 runs @ 53.86, HS 247*, 24 centuries, 31 fifties
    Combined: 90 Tests, 7535 runs @ 55.40, HS 247*, 25 centuries, 33 fifties

    Ian Chappell
    Supertests: 5 Tests, 634 runs @ 79.25, HS 145*, 4 centuries, 1 fifty
    Official: 75 Tests, 5345 runs @ 42.42, HS 196, 14 centuries, 26 fifties
    Combined: 80 Tests, 5979 runs @ 44.62, HS 196, 18 centuries, 27 fifties

    Rod Marsh
    Supertests: 5 Tests, 11 Dismissals, 186 runs @ 31.00, HS 77*, 0 centuries, 2 fifties
    Official: 96 Tests, 355 Dismissals, 3633 runs @ 26.52, HS 132, 3 centuries, 16 fifties
    Combined: 101 Tests, 366 Dismissals, 3819 runs @ 26.71, HS 132, 3 centuries, 18 fifties

    Dennis Lillee
    Supertests: 4 Tests, 24 wkts @ 20.08, BB 8-29, 2 Fivefor, 1 Tenfor
    Official: 70 Tests, 355 wkts @ 23.92, BB 7-83, 23 Fivefor, 7 Tenfor
    Combined: 74 Tests, 379 wkts @ 23.68, BB 8-29, 25 Fivefor, 8 Tenfor
    It is vaguely interesting how much impact would be made on the Chappells, especially, mind. Not that I'd be in favour. As I say - I still hope that one day the 2005/06 game will be removed from the Test list, and a damn sight more accurate (ie, worse) it'll make Stuart MacGill's record if so. No-one else will be affected that much.

    But it's interesting still.

  8. #8
    State Regular Indipper's Avatar
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    WSC and at least part of the Rebel Tests will eventually be regarded as Tests by historians, I have no doubt about that. The arguments against it are purely political and have nothing to do with the quality of cricket, which should be the only concern in the matter.

  9. #9
    International Regular aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Here is the 1971-72 Australia vs World XI link

    http://gulf.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/...RLD-XI_IN_AUS/

    Doug Walters also had a great series so it would have been:

    Supertests: 5 Tests, 355 runs @ 71.00, HS 127, 2 centuries, 1 fifty
    Official: 74 Tests, 5347 runs @ 48.26, HS 250, 15 centuries, 33 fifties
    Combined: 79 Tests, 5712 runs @ 49.24, HS 250, 17 centuries, 34 fifties

    That would be enough to move him above Gilchrist in runs and above Harvey in the averages.....
    Last edited by aussie tragic; 01-05-2008 at 10:06 PM.

  10. #10
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    Love reading the scorecard for the match in Perth - Lillee - 8/29.

    Saw an interview with Sobers on that game in the Chappell Era video. IIRC he saw Lillee bowl in Brisbane, where he bowled real fast, and as Sobers said "My thoughts immediately turned to Perth, adn I thought to my self 'What has Sir Don got me into here?'" Apparently he walked out to bat, and as he walked past the slips he looked at them and said "What on earth are you all doing way back here?" to which Marsh replied "You'll find out"!!

    Of course Sobers got his revenge with that wonderful 200+ in Melbourne.
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  11. #11
    International Regular aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Interesting for me, the following players would have worse records if the 1971-72 games were added:

    Graeme Pollock
    Supertests: 3 Tests, 209 runs @ 41.80, HS 136, 1 century, 0 fifties
    Official: 23 Tests, 2256 runs @ 80.97, HS 274, 7 centuries, 11 fifties
    Combined: 26 Tests, 2465 runs @ 58.69, HS 274, 8 centuries, 11 fifties
    Would drop him from 2nd in all-time averages (retired players) to 5th, just ahead of Barrington's 58.67

    Sunil Gavaskar
    Supertests: 5 Tests, 257 runs @ 28.56, HS 68*, 0 centuries, 2 fifties
    Official: 125 Tests, 10122 runs @ 51.12, HS 236*, 34 centuries, 45 fifties
    Combined: 130 Tests, 10379 runs @ 50.14, HS 236*, 34 centuries, 47 fifties
    Would just keep his average above 50

  12. #12
    International Regular aussie tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    It is vaguely interesting how much impact would be made on the Chappells, especially, mind.
    umm, Ian Chappell starts with a century in each innings of the first test and scores 4 centuries in the 5-test series, while Greg Chappell scores a century in his first test for Australia (lucky he did it in his first official test as well).

    Both Chappells would have a decent jump in career batting average, so I think its a real shame they're not counted seeing as how they were not "rebel" games.....

  13. #13
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie tragic View Post
    I still donít think its fair that the ICC World XI vs Australia is counted as legitimate test records when the 1971-72 World XI vs Australia and the 1977-79 Packer WSC Supertests are not..........

    Accordingly, I thought Iíd see what the records would look like if they were counted.

    Iíll start with some Aussie ďGreatsĒ

    Greg Chappell
    Supertests: 17 Tests, 1840 runs @ 63.45, HS 246*, 7 centuries, 5 fifties
    Official: 87 Tests, 7110 runs @ 53.86, HS 247*, 24 centuries, 31 fifties
    Combined: 104 Tests, 8950 runs @ 55.59, HS 247*, 31 centuries, 36 fifties
    Would be 4th Highest Australian Run Scorer (currently 9th)

    Ian Chappell
    Supertests: 19 Tests, 1527 runs @ 46.27, HS 145, 5 centuries, 6 fifties
    Official: 75 Tests, 5345 runs @ 42.42, HS 196, 14 centuries, 26 fifties
    Combined: 94 Tests, 6872 runs @ 43.22, HS 196, 19 centuries, 32 fifties
    Would be 11th Highest Australian Run Scorer between Bradman and Harvey (currently 14th)

    Rod Marsh
    Supertests: 20 Tests, 63 Dismissals, 717 runs @ 21.73, HS 102*, 1 century, 3 fifties
    Official: 96 Tests, 355 Dismissals, 3633 runs @ 26.52, HS 132, 3 centuries, 16 fifties
    Combined: 116 Tests, 418 Dismissals, 4350 runs @ 25.59, HS 132, 4 centuries, 19 fifties
    Would hold Australian Record Dismissals (Gilchrist 416)

    Dennis Lillee
    Supertests: 18 Tests, 91 wkts @ 25.08, BB 8-29, 8 Fivefor, 1 Tenfor
    Official: 70 Tests, 355 wkts @ 23.92, BB 7-83, 23 Fivefor, 7 Tenfor
    Combined: 88 Tests, 446 wkts @ 24.16, BB 8-29, 31 Fivefor, 8 Tenfor
    Would have held World record for 14 more years (Currently 1981-86)
    If Packer series was recognised (and the 'rebels' were allowed to play the 'official' matches as well) the records may have been greater for these players PLUS some of the easy runs and wickets those playing official cricket in those years got, would have seen a massive reduction.

    ICC would do the game great justice by at least according official status to those tests and one day internationals played under 'Packer'. This is the least they can do.

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    SJS
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    I get a tingling sensation just reading those great names. Here is the World Squad that faced the Australians of 1977-78 in the WSC super tests.

    1. Barry Richards
    2. Gordon Greenidge
    3. Roy Fredricks
    4. Viv Richards
    5. Zaheer Abbas
    6. Clive Lloyd
    7. Asif Iqbal
    8. Tony Greig
    9. Mike Proctor
    10. Imran Khan
    11. Andy Roberts
    12. Joel Garner
    13. Wayne Daniel
    14. Derryk Underwood
    15. Alan Knott


    And this is a world side WITHOUT the Aussies. Add to it
    • Greg Chappell
    • Ian Chappell
    • Dennis Lillee
    • Rod Marsh


    and you cant find many world squads down the 130 years of test cricket that sounds so imposing.

    To score runs or get wickets in this ensemble would have meant something and yet we do not even recognise those feats but are willing to give official status to the Asia versus Africa and similar mindless jamborees of the ICC.

  15. #15
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    Although there's no way any of the Packer Circus should be included in official records, no one should get the idea that this was garden party cricket. Many on the seasoned participants considered it the toughest cricket they ever played.

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