When will Flintoff be back?

[Cameron-Moss]

I've been away from cricket in this last 6 months, in my gaming period as I would call it. I've just been wondering what happen to good' ol' drunken Freddie?

 

[Richard]

Cameron-Moss is back! You'll be getting a Bickers next week too.

Flintoff hasn't done that much in recent times, but is playing, is bowling and the signs so far have been good. I'd not pick him for at least the first half of this season, however, as I don't feel we have enough reliable evidence that he can function as a full part of a bowling-attack. Which he must do if he is to play.

I'd think about the South Africa Test series, and that'd be it. Nothing before. And it'll disappoint me if he gets brought back any earlier, even if things do happen to turn-out all right after that.

 

[shortpitched713]

I'd think about the South Africa Test series, and that'd be it. Nothing before. And it'll disappoint me if he gets brought back any earlier, even if things do happen to turn-out all right after that.

How you could possibly have enough knowledge about Andrew Flintoff and his fitness situation, beyond that of his trainers and himself in order to make such a declaration absolutely confounds me.

If they deem him fit before that series then why shouldn't he play? A fit Flintoff is a bowling fit Flintoff, everyone knows that.

 

[FBU]

I think he will be back for the ODIs against New Zealand.

 

[bond21]

How you could possibly have enough knowledge about Andrew Flintoff and his fitness situation, beyond that of his trainers and himself in order to make such a declaration absolutely confounds me.

If they deem him fit before that series then why shouldn't he play? A fit Flintoff is a bowling fit Flintoff, everyone knows that.

no...

the ECB has to ask Richard if Flintoff can play,

DUHHHH.

 

[Richard]

How you could possibly have enough knowledge about Andrew Flintoff and his fitness situation, beyond that of his trainers and himself in order to make such a declaration absolutely confounds me.

If they deem him fit before that series then why shouldn't he play? A fit Flintoff is a bowling fit Flintoff, everyone knows that.

(and yes I mean that, though you might not have the context to understand why)

The entire point is that no-one has any reliable knowledge about Flintoff's fitness situation. The only way we are going to find-out is to wait and see. An ankle which has had four operations on very similar problems cannot be said to be an open-and-shut case. There is a very real possibility, and has been for some time, that there will be no perminant recovery.

And if there is not, it'd be better if we found that out in domestic cricket rather than in the middle of a Test-match.

 

[shortpitched713]

And if there is not, it'd be better if we found that out in domestic cricket rather than in the middle of a Test-match.

I don't see how thees that much of a difference in those two cases as far as England is concerned with the future of their Test team. If you're not going to play him when hes fit, there's no point playing him at all, imho. Also imo, that assessment can be made without necessarily playing in first-class matches, but by quality physios and trainers during the course of a full intensity bowling regimen.

 

[Anna]

Justin Langer's column for the BBC:

If I was the sole selector of the England Test team, Andrew Flintoff could bat at number 11 if it meant playing him.

Since the 2005 Ashes series, it has been my strong opinion that he is the best fast bowler currently playing international cricket - he must play in England's first XI.

In many ways it is a luxury to have the gladiatorial Lancastrian batting at number six and acting as the fourth bowler.

There have been whispers that he needs to score runs to scrape into the England line-up.

But I have never known Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh or Glenn McGrath having to score runs to be selected.

There is no doubt Flintoff is a more talented all-round cricketer than the three legends I have just named, but he is in equal company when it comes to delivering a cricket ball.

Only last week I padded up against Lancashire in the County Championship for Somerset and I can say first hand that Flintoff is absolutely ready to be picked for the first Test against New Zealand.

One of the joys of retiring from international cricket was knowing that I wouldn't be peppered by the world's best fast bowlers ever again.

This in mind, I was shocked at the ferocity of the Flintoff onslaught at Old Trafford.

As I kept saying to him, I could have understood if I was batting with Matthew Hayden and wearing a green Australia helmet with a kangaroo and emu embroidered on the front.
Flintoff's spell for Lancashire was just as ferocious as any from the Ashes

Instead, I was in a red Somerset helmet with Marcus Trescothick partnering me, so if I was ever in for a reprieve from England's best fast bowler then surely that would have been the time.

History will suggest this couldn't have been further from the truth.

For about an hour I could have been in the boxing ring with Joe Calzaghe and by the end of it I had literally copped a hammering.

My ribs, elbow and chest were so bruised I could have been confused for Bernard Hopkins in Las Vegas!

Both Marcus and I agreed his spell was one of the great ones either of us had ever faced and while it was ugly - and at times intimidating - it is what we miss about playing international cricket on its toughest days.

The thing that distinguishes Flintoff from the rest is every time the captain throws him the ball, the opposition team sit on the edge of their seats hoping he doesn't destroy the game during his spell.

Last week at Old Trafford was no different as if Australia were playing an Ashes Test match.

The opposition may have been different - but the feeling was identical.

There is no doubt the big fiery quick must prove his fitness but, from what I have seen, he is ready and he would be in my team every single day of the week.

He had that hungry look in his eye and a hungry and inspired legend must be selected every time they are fit because they simply win games by their presence and skill.


From Somerset,
JL

 

[Richard]

I don't see how thees that much of a difference in those two cases as far as England is concerned with the future of their Test team.

The question is not merely about the future, it's about the present. If Flintoff were to be picked as part of a bowling-attack in a Test and be unable to bowl, that'd potentially cause huge damage to our chances in that Test. Obviously, the result for the next 30 Tests after that would be the same whether it was that or him doing the same in a domestic match, but that's not the only thing of import.

If you're not going to play him when hes fit, there's no point playing him at all, imho. Also imo, that assessment can be made without necessarily playing in first-class matches, but by quality physios and trainers during the course of a full intensity bowling regimen.

It can't. There is no way to test someone's fitness for bowling by doing anything other than bowling. And right now, he's done nowhere near enough of that for any real assessment to be made of how he's likely to go longer-term. He's bowled, what, 50-odd overs or so since his latest op. That's nothing. He could very easily break down next time he approaches a bowling-crease.

 

[Richard]

Justin Langer's column for the BBC:

If I was the sole selector of the England Test team, Andrew Flintoff could bat at number 11 if it meant playing him.

Since the 2005 Ashes series, it has been my strong opinion that he is the best fast bowler currently playing international cricket - he must play in England's first XI.

In many ways it is a luxury to have the gladiatorial Lancastrian batting at number six and acting as the fourth bowler.

There have been whispers that he needs to score runs to scrape into the England line-up.

But I have never known Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh or Glenn McGrath having to score runs to be selected.

There is no doubt Flintoff is a more talented all-round cricketer than the three legends I have just named, but he is in equal company when it comes to delivering a cricket ball.

Only last week I padded up against Lancashire in the County Championship for Somerset and I can say first hand that Flintoff is absolutely ready to be picked for the first Test against New Zealand.

One of the joys of retiring from international cricket was knowing that I wouldn't be peppered by the world's best fast bowlers ever again.

This in mind, I was shocked at the ferocity of the Flintoff onslaught at Old Trafford.

As I kept saying to him, I could have understood if I was batting with Matthew Hayden and wearing a green Australia helmet with a kangaroo and emu embroidered on the front.
Flintoff's spell for Lancashire was just as ferocious as any from the Ashes

Instead, I was in a red Somerset helmet with Marcus Trescothick partnering me, so if I was ever in for a reprieve from England's best fast bowler then surely that would have been the time.

History will suggest this couldn't have been further from the truth.

For about an hour I could have been in the boxing ring with Joe Calzaghe and by the end of it I had literally copped a hammering.

My ribs, elbow and chest were so bruised I could have been confused for Bernard Hopkins in Las Vegas!

Both Marcus and I agreed his spell was one of the great ones either of us had ever faced and while it was ugly - and at times intimidating - it is what we miss about playing international cricket on its toughest days.

The thing that distinguishes Flintoff from the rest is every time the captain throws him the ball, the opposition team sit on the edge of their seats hoping he doesn't destroy the game during his spell.

Last week at Old Trafford was no different as if Australia were playing an Ashes Test match.

The opposition may have been different - but the feeling was identical.

There is no doubt the big fiery quick must prove his fitness but, from what I have seen, he is ready and he would be in my team every single day of the week.

He had that hungry look in his eye and a hungry and inspired legend must be selected every time they are fit because they simply win games by their presence and skill.


From Somerset,
JL

Both Langer and Trescothick, who said the same thing after the same game, seem to have missed the point. Undoubtedly, if he's fit now he's one of the best bowlers in the country - and yes, in The World too. The point is we still have no reliable indication of how long he's likely to be fit for.

 

[Goughy]

Justin Langer's column for the BBC:

Cant argue with the content but I hope he wrote it himself as I really dont like the way its written and Id hate for a ghostwriter to get paid for that.

 

[Richard]

Annoyingly, I can't seem to find any information on those behind the column.

 

[GIMH]

I agree with Langer, bat him at 11 if need be, there is no better fast bowler still playing IMO

I'll disagree with you on this one Rich, I think if we are going to have problems we will have them, whether he plays in this series, the next one or the one after. It will either come back or it won't IMO, and so if he is feeling no pain and bowling well, I would pick him.

Pure desperation though, seems like so long since he wore those whites, I miss it so much

 

[Richard]

I'll disagree with you on this one Rich, I think if we are going to have problems we will have them, whether he plays in this series, the next one or the one after. It will either come back or it won't IMO, and so if he is feeling no pain and bowling well, I would pick him.

Yes, I'm not saying otherwise to "it either will come back or it won't". I'm not suggesting bringing him back now will increase the risk.

What I'm saying is that if he's brought back before we've realised that the problem hasn't gone away and the fact that he can't bowl costs a Test (which history suggests is very possible) that'll be disastrous.

It'd be preferable for him to bowl for half this season in domestic cricket and then for the problem to come back, if the choice is between this and it coming back in a Test. We can't control whether it's gone or it's still there - we can control how much impact the fact that it might very well not have gone or not will make.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, haven't got my point across well here and think I'll struggle again. But basically, I appreciate everything you've just said, I just reckon that it might come back tomorrow, it might come back against NZ, it might come back against SA. I think we can sit and wait to see if it does, and if it doesn't, we've wasted game time, or we can play him. If it comes back, it comes back, it was going to anyway.

Really haven't got that across to represent what I am thinking

 

[Richard]

Basically you're saying "if the injury is to come back, we might as well wring the last few drops from the Flintoff sponge before it can no longer be refilled"?

How sad m'Lud.

I also find - and it's not really rational - that it'd be heartbreaking to see him finished-off in the middle of a Test. It's a worry I also very much have about Vaughan - I'm sure he's going to collapse in the middle of a Test one day, possibly soon, and that'll be it.

There's nothing that makes me sadder than seeing a great or fine cricketer's last act being helped off the field injured, knowing they will never return. It really did kill me watching that with Allan Donald.

 

[GIMH]

It's not quite what I'm saying it, but the jist is that we should play him while we can, I guess, yeah.

Hope he doesn't go down in a Test but my last memory of him in a Test at the moment is him leading us to 0-5 in the Ashes, that's not exactly pleasant either.

 

[Richard]

It's not, but it is preferable to watching him standing helplessly at slip (or, worse, sitting in the dressing-room) as our three-man attack including a toothless fingerspinner fails to defend 380 resulting in a defeat to New Zealand in the deciding Third Test.

TBH.

 

[GIMH]

I thought you didn't do far-fetched scenarios

Look, here's what's going to happen, Flintoff is going to play 7 Tests, take 50 wickets and score 850 runs

 

[Richard]

I thought you didn't do far-fetched scenarios

I don't normally, and ITBT I know the likelihood of that is roughly zero.

But TBH, even if he were to be sitting in the dressing-room as we romped to a 3-0 victory, it'd still be worse for me than the current most-recent-situation scenario.

You know me - I always hate to see a cricketer continue to play when he is no longer very good. I hate it even more to see one's last act at the top level be being inactive.