Rate the captains

[Briony]

Originally Posted by Flem274*

Command of some very good ODI players, most of whom (mainly bowlers, with some batsmen) got injured constantly and then some rabble surrounding those good players, or is Matt Bell a good batsman now?

But lost more than he won. To really prove genius, as someone else suggested he was, surely you have to value add? A true genius would have his players 'overachieving'. I think the NZ teams/ players as on balance performed to expectations. I believe the Fleming is great captain cry has become a mythical mantra.

A further example is that Smith is univerally considered a poor captain yet gets some good results considering the teams are compromised by the quota system. I doubt he ever really gets the team he wants. And SA has never had a quality spinner.

To really test a skipper's worth it would be interesting to put Punter in charge of the kiwis and Fleming in charge of the Aussies. BTW I also feel that Fleming never as the leader of the team made the tough runs when it really counted.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by gettingbetter

Really? Not exactly sure how long they were captains but Bothan, Tendulkar, Pollock, Hughes and so on where good players in there own right, but once captain, they and there teams suffered.

And none captained for any real length of time, bar Kim Hughes whose team didn't really suffer as much due to him as is sometimes painted.

And are you referring to Shaun Pollock there? There was nothing wrong with Pollock's captaincy at all. Nor was there much to shout about with it, but he was far from poor, very far indeed.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Briony

A further example is that Smith is univerally considered a poor captain yet gets some good results considering the teams are compromised by the quota system.

I'm not sure he is. No-one rates his captaincy as something special, because it isn't, but I don't think anyone other than those who have a rabid, irrational hatred of him (and they do number a decent few) thinks he's a poor captain.

Most people prepared to offer a fair assessment of him say he does a decent job. Not an outstanding one (there are thought to be at least a couple who might do better) but a more than acceptible one.

[Richard]

Another thing I think would be good would be to pick a "best from each Test team".

I'd go something like...
Australia - Benaud
England - Brearley
India - Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi
New Zealand - Fleming
Pakistan - Imran Khan
South Africa - Ali Bacher
Sri Lanka - Ranatunga
West Indies - Worrell
Zimbabwe - Houghton

[subshakerz]

Originally Posted by Richard

Another thing I think would be good would be to pick a "best from each Test team".

I'd go something like...
Australia - Benaud
England - Brearley
India - Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi
New Zealand - Fleming
Pakistan - Imran Khan
South Africa - Ali Bacher
Sri Lanka - Ranatunga
West Indies - Worrell
Zimbabwe - Houghton

I think both Ian Chappell and Mark Taylor have good claims to be top Aussie skipper.

[Richard]

Yeah, they do, especially Chappell.

TBH, though, from what I've read about Benaud he "embraced" (if that's the right word) defence a bit more than Chappell did - he saw how defence could be both the best way to go of times and sometimes even the best form of attack - witness he himself turning the wristspin-around-the-wicket line into a deadly one in 1961.

Chappell, from everything I've read (and indeed heard from the man himself), placed a little too much emphasis on attack. Mostly, with his teams, he could afford to, like that most hated successor of his Stephen Waugh.

The best captains must always be able to both attack and defend and never shy away or even consider so from doing either.

Australia, with Armstrong, Woodfull and those three have undoubtedly produced more fine captains than any other cricketing nation.

[funnygirl]

Mark Taylor ,the reason why Aussies became invincibles, in my opinion . Then the older ones ,i don't remember that much .So from those i watched .

[Richard]

You never watched Imran?

[funnygirl]

Imran khan was great ,but for pure captaincy skills ,i choose Taylor ,he was more aggressive than Khan ,IMO .

[Michaelf7777777]

Australia: Bradman
England: Brearley
India: Nawab of Pataudi jr
New Zealand: Fleming
Pakistan: Imran Kahn
Sri Lanka: Ranatunga
South Africa: Cheetham
West Indies: Worrell

[Perm]

From what I've read, Martin Crowe was a pretty good captain. Whether or not that was based purely on the 1992 World Cup I'm not sure.

[Zinzan]

Originally Posted by Richard

Gotta love the way Fleming gets 4 votes before most people get 1... and at least 3 from young Kiwis too.

Don't know why you ask people to vote and then rubbish there opinion. Fleming could easily be considered the greatest ever when you consider the resources he has had over the years. Imagine if Fleming had captained Australia from 1997-2007. Certainly if there was a vote of which captain got the most out of limited resources it would be Fleming hands-down

[biased indian]

imran for me..
just look the pakistan results during him and others time should be better i think...
and he had a command and respect over his players may be only miandad may not agree

[Briony]

Originally Posted by zinzan12

Don't know why you ask people to vote and then rubbish there opinion. Fleming could easily be considered the greatest ever when you consider the resources he has had over the years. Imagine if Fleming had captained Australia from 1997-2007. Certainly if there was a vote of which captain got the most out of limited resources it would be Fleming hands-down

But in ODIs for eg., he's still on the wrong side of the win/loss ledger. How is this value adding? Surely a captain to be considered great could have won more than he lost? He commanded many of the world's best one day players in his time as well.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by zinzan12

Don't know why you ask people to vote and then rubbish there opinion. Fleming could easily be considered the greatest ever when you consider the resources he has had over the years. Imagine if Fleming had captained Australia from 1997-2007. Certainly if there was a vote of which captain got the most out of limited resources it would be Fleming hands-down

FFS... "rubbish their opinion". I've done absolutely nothing of the sort - I specifically said I don't think the notion of Fleming as the best captain ever is a completely outrageous one, much as I'd not consider it myself.

I just find it kinda funny that Fleming is leading the poll as TBH I wasn't really expecting it. And the fact that it's Kiwis of approximately my age almost without fail who've voted for him is doubly amusing.