Rate the captains

[gettingbetter]

Suggestions to someone to create a worst captain poll.

[Richard]

Don't really see the point TBH, you could name Joe Higgins who once captained Village Specials XI there.

By-and-large, if you have a lengthy spell as a Test captain, you can't be bad.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Michaelf7777777

Although I think you are being quite harsh on some other captains including Sir Donald Bradman, Lindsay Hassett and Herbie Collins by not including them in the poll.

Bradman was never thought to have been a particularly outstanding captain, merely adaquete and of course a phenomenal batsman; Collins I know little to nothing about as his time was before the 1930s and I only know bits and pieces there (hence McLaren); and Hassett I did consider, but while he did a good job I don't think he's up with the very best.

Originally Posted by SJS

No Close ?

Originally Posted by SJS

There ia a lovely book called The Great Captains - edited by Arlott and first published in 1971.

It lists (in order of their respective careers)

1. Mclaren
2. Warner
3. Jardine
4. Sellers
5. Wooller
6. Surridge
7. Cheetham
8. Worrell

Those in red are missing from our poll - one presumes because almost all of them (barring South African Cheetham) made a name for themselves as captains basically in domestic cricket.

To the list of great captains outside test cricket, post 1970, one could add Clive Rice and ML Jaisimha.

Pelham Warner I could have included I suppose, but I didn't think there a lot of point in mentioning the likes of Close, Sellers, Surridge or Rice because few on this board have read enough of historical domestic cricket to know much of their skill. I myself don't know that much. I thought it best to keep it to those who have achieved notable deeds at international level.

Cheetham is an interesting one, though. I wonder, sometimes, about a Cheetham vs Bacher poll, and whether anyone would even post.

[Nutter]

Flem led teams chock full of pie chuckers and number 11 batsmen masquerading as our top order, and still did well.

I'm a big Steve Waugh fan, but looks like he didn't make the poll.

[Richard]

No - as I said in the opening post, I rate Stephen Waugh's captaincy as no more than adaquete. Certainly not close to the level of those in this poll - it didn't need to be.

And really, it's a myth that Fleming's teams did well when they truly were awful. No captain can do that, however good. New Zealand did well when they had good and decent players with them, but Fleming always made the most of whatever it was he had.

[Lillian Thomson]

I'm not sure that this poll has much point to it as it's too self indulgent. Surely the idea of a poll is to guage opinion. To omit four of the most successful captains of all time - Waugh-Ponting-Richards-Lloyd - doesn't make much sense. Some people do rate them and they would receive a lot of votes. All that's being rated here are the one's that the OP thinks are worthy, which is not proving anything and is of minimal interest.

[Richard]

It's of interest to me. If people wish to refuse to vote because they think Lloyd, Waugh or whoever was more worthy than any, that's up to them.

I'm not interested in seeing who's of the opinion that Stephen Waugh was the greatest captain ever, I'm more than aware of the consensus on that already. I am interested in seeing some discussion of others, particularly those included in the poll.

[Burgey]

Originally Posted by SJS

No Close ?

Close.

But no cigar.

Takes coat

[99*]

Voted Flem, only one I remember watching. (think Taylor retired just before I started watching)

I've heard that Brearley was a very good captain (but a hopeless bat).

Have heard of most of the options and what they did as captain. Just never saw them in action.

[Flem274*]

Originally Posted by Nutter

Flem led teams chock full of pie chuckers and number 11 batsmen masquerading as our top order, and still did well.

I'm a big Steve Waugh fan, but looks like he didn't make the poll.

Originally Posted by Richard

No - as I said in the opening post, I rate Stephen Waugh's captaincy as no more than adaquete. Certainly not close to the level of those in this poll - it didn't need to be.

And really, it's a myth that Fleming's teams did well when they truly were awful. No captain can do that, however good. New Zealand did well when they had good and decent players with them, but Fleming always made the most of whatever it was he had.

I'd put it somewhere between the two. Fleming has done well with teams that have included say, 9 good players and a couple of crappies. A few years back if we lost 4 players through injury good old Tama Canning, Iain O'Brien, Lance Hamilton, Mathew Bell etc would pop up. Thank God that now at least we have inexperienced talent (mixed with some crap of course), rather than just inexperienced rubbish.

[Briony]

Originally Posted by Athlai

Voted for Fleming due to him being the best in my lifetime, and captaincy is such a hard thing to truly appreciate through the history books.

Where is the proof that Fleming was a great captain or is it a myth which gets perpetuated? Statistically his record isn't great. Bear in mind he captained NZ which isn't the strongest of cricketing nations but even his limited overs record is not flash yet he was in command of some very good ODI players.

[Flem274*]

Originally Posted by Briony

Where is the proof that Fleming was a great captain or is it a myth which gets perpetuated? Statistically his record isn't great. Bear in mind he captained NZ which isn't the strongest of cricketing nations but even his limited overs record is not flash yet he was in command of some very good ODI players.

Command of some very good ODI players, most of whom (mainly bowlers, with some batsmen) got injured constantly and then some rabble surrounding those good players, or is Matt Bell a good batsman now?

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Richard

Bradman was never thought to have been a particularly outstanding captain, merely adaquete and of course a phenomenal batsman; Collins I know little to nothing about as his time was before the 1930s and I only know bits and pieces there (hence McLaren); and Hassett I did consider, but while he did a good job I don't think he's up with the very best.


Pelham Warner I could have included I suppose, but I didn't think there a lot of point in mentioning the likes of Close, Sellers, Surridge or Rice because few on this board have read enough of historical domestic cricket to know much of their skill. I myself don't know that much. I thought it best to keep it to those who have achieved notable deeds at international level.

Cheetham is an interesting one, though. I wonder, sometimes, about a Cheetham vs Bacher poll, and whether anyone would even post.

Agreed

[DJellett]

Voted Fleming.

Genius.

[gettingbetter]

Originally Posted by Richard

Don't really see the point TBH, you could name Joe Higgins who once captained Village Specials XI there.

By-and-large, if you have a lengthy spell as a Test captain, you can't be bad.

Really? Not exactly sure how long they were captains but Bothan, Tendulkar, Pollock, Hughes and so on where good players in there own right, but once captain, they and there teams suffered.