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Vivian Richards vs Sachin Tendulkar

Who was the better Test match batsman?


  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Lol, that's proof enough that arguing with you on the merits of a cricketer is useless. Hard to argue with such bias.

You've made it clear on these boards you're on some campaign to ensure that Ponting is rated as some holy legend, and will denigrate one of the greatest batsman ever seen (and acknowledged by Bradman and many other experts) to try and push your theory.

No point even arguing with you when Ponting's name comes up, because he can do no wrong.
You're telling me that Tendulkar's failures against the 2 best attacks of his time is nothing to mention? The fact that he only played something resembling a full Aussie line-up for like 2 tests? Come on, bias is coming from you my friend.

I am not saying Tendulkar was not better than Ponting in the 90s, not even close. But the arguments put against Ponting that he didn't do as well in the 90s because he didn't face the best bowlers is tripe. He did as good if not better than Tendulkar. And now is doing better than Tendulkar regardless who he faces. The guy is averaging 64 for the past 8 years and people are still 'kinda' thinking about putting him on the same level, what a joke.

If I'm on a campaign to do anything, it is to dispel silly notions that Tendulkar or Lara or anyone in the 90s have no question marks over them simply because they played most of their career in the 90s - currently, to me, they have more question marks. And to dispel any such notion that suggests someone like Ponting must have a career average higher than 60 in order to even compare.
 
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Athlai

Not Terrible
I don't care how many more runs Ponting is scoring, Tendulkar is a better batsman even now. I would pick him every time over Ponting. Ponting is one of the greats of the modern age but unlike Tendulkar he's not even close to being an all-time great.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
But the arguments put against Ponting that he didn't do as well in the 90s because he didn't face the best bowlers is tripe. He did as good if not better than Tendulkar. And now is doing better than Tendulkar regardless who he faces. The guy is averaging 64 for the past 8 years and people are still 'kinda' thinking about putting him on the same level, what a joke.
Ponting was nowhere close to Tendulkar in 90s. Based on his performance in 90s only Ponting wouldn't make it to top 100 batsman of all time whereas based on 90s performance, Tendulkar would be sitting comfortably next to Sir Don.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Lol, that's proof enough that arguing with you on the merits of a cricketer is useless. Hard to argue with such bias.

You've made it clear on these boards you're on some campaign to ensure that Ponting is rated as some holy legend, and will denigrate one of the greatest batsman ever seen (and acknowledged by Bradman and many other experts) to try and push your theory.

No point even arguing with you when Ponting's name comes up, because he can do no wrong.
Ponting greatest Batsman and Warne greatest bowler.
 

biased indian

International Coach
kAzO..just start a thread ponting vs tendulkar..since CW is in the mod for that and see what people think..
this thread is sachin vs viv not ...sachin vs the greatest player ever to hold a bat
 

biased indian

International Coach
You're telling me that Tendulkar's failures against the 2 best attacks of his time is nothing to mention? The fact that he only played something resembling a full Aussie line-up for like 2 tests? Come on, bias is coming from you my friend.
Can you point out a player who's career average is above 50 and have played 8+ games in a particular country and still avg less than 13 in that country

think theres is no one like that except one player ..would be happy to be proven wrong though
 
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Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Ponting was nowhere close to Tendulkar in 90s. Based on his performance in 90s only Ponting wouldn't make it to top 100 batsman of all time whereas based on 90s performance, Tendulkar would be sitting comfortably next to Sir Don.
You're right in as far as that comment goes, but the difficulty with any comparison of this nature is that players aren't the same at the same age or after the same number of tests played.

Some players (Tendulkar, Harvey to name but two) come into test cricket as teenagers and flourish straight away. Others (like Steve Waugh, Hayden) get thrown in early, don't do well, and come back later as better players. Still others (Hussey) don't even get a chance at all until much later, by which time they know their games backwards from having played FC cricket for years.

Steve Waugh at 22 wasn't anywhere near the player he was later in his career. He said himself that when he was called in, he just wasn't ready. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great player when he retired, it just means he became a great palyer later.

If you're going to campare Tendulkar's stats in the 90s to Pontings, why can't you compare them this decade? There seems to be a belief held by many on this site (not saying your good self btw) that if a player didn't do well in the 90s but has done well this decade, they are automatically an inferior player to someone who did well in the 90s. That can be true, but is not automatically true, because it ignores the fact that players improve or decline, and they do so at different stages of their careers.

People say, eg, Ponting or Hayden didn't do as well in the 90s and the reason they do well now is because the bowling now is crap. But comments like that ignore the fact that Hayden played all of 12 tests up to Jan 2001, and at no time was he considered to have been a certain starter in the side. Now, anyone who watched Hayden in his early tests could tell he had limitations, many of which he's gotten rid of now, but what clearly shone through was the bloke didn't really believe in himself at all. How some posters can use a sample of 12 tests taken over 7 or 8 years to say a bloke's an inferior player, when the same bloke has now played nearly 100 and averages over 50 seems ridiculous. If he'd played 30-40 tests in the same period, I could grant the argument some weight.

Likewise, Ponting's test average to 1 Jan 2000 was 44.5 - hardly a huge failure on his part. Dravid's to that point was about 48 or 49. Both those guys averages have exploded this decade, but you can't just say it's because the bowling's crap. It can be a factor, but Ponting's average this decade is over 60 - nearly a 20 point improvement. I'd think that's got far more to do with the fella coming into his prime than it has to do with bowlers suddenly doing the equivalent of bowling underarm to him. Certainly though, Tendulkar in the 90s was a far superior player than Ponting was. He and Lara were clearly the dominant batsmen of that decade, along with Waugh. The same, though, can be said for Ponting, Kallis & Dravid this decade.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
You're right in as far as that comment goes, but the difficulty with any comparison of this nature is that players aren't the same at the same age or after the same number of tests played.

Some players (Tendulkar, Harvey to name but two) come into test cricket as teenagers and flourish straight away. Others (like Steve Waugh, Hayden) get thrown in early, don't do well, and come back later as better players. Still others (Hussey) don't even get a chance at all until much later, by which time they know their games backwards from having played FC cricket for years.

Steve Waugh at 22 wasn't anywhere near the player he was later in his career. He said himself that when he was called in, he just wasn't ready. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great player when he retired, it just means he became a great palyer later.

If you're going to campare Tendulkar's stats in the 90s to Pontings, why can't you compare them this decade? There seems to be a belief held by many on this site (not saying your good self btw) that if a player didn't do well in the 90s but has done well this decade, they are automatically an inferior player to someone who did well in the 90s. That can be true, but is not automatically true, because it ignores the fact that players improve or decline, and they do so at different stages of their careers.

People say, eg, Ponting or Hayden didn't do as well in the 90s and the reason they do well now is because the bowling now is crap. But comments like that ignore the fact that Hayden played all of 12 tests up to Jan 2001, and at no time was he considered to have been a certain starter in the side. Now, anyone who watched Hayden in his early tests could tell he had limitations, many of which he's gotten rid of now, but what clearly shone through was the bloke didn't really believe in himself at all. How some posters can use a sample of 12 tests taken over 7 or 8 years to say a bloke's an inferior player, when the same bloke has now played nearly 100 and averages over 50 seems ridiculous. If he'd played 30-40 tests in the same period, I could grant the argument some weight.

Likewise, Ponting's test average to 1 Jan 2000 was 44.5 - hardly a huge failure on his part. Dravid's to that point was about 48 or 49. Both those guys averages have exploded this decade, but you can't just say it's because the bowling's crap. It can be a factor, but Ponting's average this decade is over 60 - nearly a 20 point improvement. I'd think that's got far more to do with the fella coming into his prime than it has to do with bowlers suddenly doing the equivalent of bowling underarm to him. Certainly though, Tendulkar in the 90s was a far superior player than Ponting was. He and Lara were clearly the dominant batsmen of that decade, along with Waugh. The same, though, can be said for Ponting, Kallis & Dravid this decade.
Agree with every word of what you say and I dont dispute Ponting's credential's as a batsman. Neither did I start the whole Ponting in 90s discussion. It was started by KaZoh0lic to continue his ever lasting obsession of making people accept Ponting as the best batsman since Bradman. Him saying that Ponting was as good as Tendulkar in 90s is a joke.

I dont remember saying that Ponting's average in the 90s was because he faced crap bowling, I did say that he didn't have as great success against the Pakistani attack as KaZoh0lic was trying to portray. In 99 series, Ponting was out for 3 ducks in a row and only an 197 in WACA really overstates Ponting's so called dominance of pakistani pace attack, similar to Tendulkar's performance in the 2003-2004 Aus series where he failed for the most part, but in Sydney scored 300 runs which inflated his avg in the series.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Agree with every word of what you say and I dont dispute Ponting's credential's as a batsman. Neither did I start the whole Ponting in 90s discussion. It was started by KaZoh0lic to continue his ever lasting obsession of making people accept Ponting as the best batsman since Bradman. Him saying that Ponting was as good as Tendulkar in 90s is a joke.

I dont remember saying that Ponting's average in the 90s was because he faced crap bowling, I did say that he didn't have as great success against the Pakistani attack as KaZoh0lic was trying to portray. In 99 series, Ponting was out for 3 ducks in a row and only an 197 in WACA really overstates Ponting's so called dominance of pakistani pace attack, similar to Tendulkar's performance in the 2003-2004 Aus series where he failed for the most part, but in Sydney scored 300 runs which inflated his avg in the series.
Yep. Aside from the win in Hobart, the one thing I really remember about that series was the over Akhtar bowled to Ponting in Perth. Hilarious to watch, provided you weren't the one facing it!!!
 

pasag

RTDAS
Can you point out a player who averages above 50 and have played 8+ games in a particular country and still avg less than 13...

think theres is no one like that except one player ..would be happy to be proven wrong though
Sobers NZ record comes pretty close off the top of my head.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Not trying to rubbish your argument here yo, just a few things you are saying about about Tendulkar seem pretty new to me given that when i did my thread comparing Lara/Tendulkar i never saw that.

You're telling me that Tendulkar's failures against the 2 best attacks of his time is nothing to mention?.
I presume your are refering to Australia & WI here & in the 90s from my memory i don;t see how he failed againts them TBH even if he wasn't exactly prolific.

With his record vs AUS in the 90s he faced solid all-round attack on in boths tours to AUS in 99/00 & 91/92 (although Warne was either a novice or not at his best) but he didn't fail.

Vs the WI he did well againts a weakened attack in 94 & did ok in 97. So failure is a harsh term IMO.


The fact that he only played something resembling a full Aussie line-up for like 2 tests? Come on, bias is coming from you my friend.
As i just said the 99 vs AUS he faced pretty much a full-strenght Australian bowling attack and batted pretty well from my memory even without an injured Gillespie since Fleming & Kasper were very capable back-ups.


I am not saying Tendulkar was not better than Ponting in the 90s, not even close.
But thats a useless argument given the Ponting in the 90s was not even half the batsman he was from leeds 2001 to now regardless of the quality of bowling or pitches blah blah blah..


But the arguments put against Ponting that he didn't do as well in the 90s because he didn't face the best bowlers is tripe. He did as good if not better than Tendulkar. And now is doing better than Tendulkar regardless who he faces. The guy is averaging 64 for the past 8 years and people are still 'kinda' thinking about putting him on the same level, what a joke.

If I'm on a campaign to do anything, it is to dispel silly notions that Tendulkar or Lara or anyone in the 90s have no question marks over them simply because they played most of their career in the 90s - currently, to me, they have more question marks. And to dispel any such notion that suggests someone like Ponting must have a career average higher than 60 in order to even compare.
You just had to see Tendulkar & Lara bat in the 90s to know that they were better than him & this is coming from one of biggest Ponting fans on this site.

Ponting may have been superb ever since Steve Waugh sent him up to bat @ number 3 in the Leeds test of 2001. But the fact the he has cashed in tremendously on some poor attacks & averaged so high can'tbe taken lightly dawg. The only real challenging attacks all-round attacks (pace/spin) Ponting has faced since 2001 has been in the 2005 Ashes & vs SA in 05/06 & SRI 04 vs Vaas/Murali so that is very significant.



You may say that Lara & Tendy has faced the same bowlers this era & have averaged less but thats just statiscal evidence which doesn't tell you that Tendulkar had his tennis elbow woes for a good few years & people were saying he was past it & Lara had period out of the game because of stress. I really shudder to think what Tendy & Lara could have done if they had such an ease during the 90s.

Sachin has averaged 54 in the 2000s era but as i just said stats would not tell you everything about.

From that SCG test vs AUS to the Trinidad test vs WI Tendulkar of the 90s was still in full flow but then he suddenly had a problem againts Pedro Collins, then came his tennis elbow woes which led to his form did although he still managed to cash in on the average attacks on show and for me the recent series vs AUS was probably the best Tendulkar has looked since 2001 when IND played both AUS & ENG.


Lara since 2000 statiscally averages 54 but that wouldn't tell you that the 6 months he took away from the game given the stress of WI cricket when he came back vs ENG in 2000 it took up until the 2001 tour to SRI to really rekindle himself to inconsistent but magnificent Lara of the 90s & averaged 60 & being a big Ponting fan & all still rathered watching Lara bat this era.
 

R_D

International Debutant
Aussie.. i think Kaz is refering to Sachin's poor record against South Africa and i assume the second best attack he's refering to Pakistan.... those are the 2 teams he had lowest avg against.
 

biased indian

International Coach
one question to richard ?

This poll will close on 31-03-2009 at 10:52 PM any particular reason ??? :confused:

only thing i can think is for you a year is 356 days ??? :laugh:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Above is a perfect example of how you try to twist your arguments.
If anything, that just proved that you changed what you said. First you implied Ponting scored off of weak Pakistani bowling, I showed you he didn't and named the bowlers. Then you said you never called them weak. Then when I mentioned them again you asked where was Waqar, as if that demeaned the record because Akhtar was there instead?
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Aussie.. i think Kaz is refering to Sachin's poor record against South Africa and i assume the second best attack he's refering to Pakistan.... those are the 2 teams he had lowest avg against.
Well if thats the case thats seem as if Kaz is trying to dig a bit too deep to find a fault in Tendulkars performances in the 90s which is unfortunate.

Even though i aint no expert of Indian cricket i know what goes on to fair level & i know for a fact that being captain of India did affect Tendulkars batting & coincidentally he played SA a fair bit as captain yea he wasn't as prolific as againts sides but should that really be a fault in his averages back then? I have heard a great deal about that 169 he scored in 97 some rate it one of his top 3-5 test innings. Plus in 92/93 he was just a kid & although fared well i'm very sure wasn't the complete article then as yet.

Vs PAK ha, stood up as kid to Imran/Wasim/Waqar could have probably score a match winning hundred in 99 & got a delivery from Akhtar that would have cleaned up any batsman 9 times out of 10. Not an argument i buy much.
 

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