All hail Dale Steyn

[subshakerz]

I'm think it's a bit strange that Lee is considered so superior to Steyn given the fact that:

-Lee only really has the last two series on Aussie wickets where he's proven himself as his side's main strike bowler

-he has never played and performed in the subcontinent like Steyn has

 

[silentstriker]

Jaffer: always been solid in India. Coming of 70 odd.
Sehwag: coming off 300
Dravid: one of the best batsmen in the modern era
Laxman: great Australian summer
Ganguly: meh
Dhoni: always been good in challenging situations*

One of the best batsmen of the modern era doesn't say anything about current form. And Dhoni has never been all that good in Tests, as you mention. Sehwag is always hot and cold, and while Jaffer has been solid in India, there is no way he can last against anyone who has pace or if the pitch assists them.

Considering the pitch in the first Test, it is pretty irrelevent what people scored. Scoring 70 on that pitch is not really a plus - you'd back most FC batsmen to have a great shot at a 50+ score.

 

[Richard]

Surely even if he doesn't perform all that well in South Africa you can't really write him off. I don't think (not 100% sure) that Lee has that good of a record in England or in the subcontinent. ATM, Steyn is averaging sub in the Indian series and with one more game to go, if he can remain under 25, which is highly likely, he is one his way to being better than Lee.

Pretty sure Lee's only played 3 Tests in the subcontinent, all against a rabble Pakistan. Nor has he bowled well against England either in England or Australia.

 

[Richard]

I don't know about that. Jaffer's a walking wicket. Sehwag is hit and miss. Dravid is out of form. Dhoni can't buy a run. And Ganguly and Laxman are Ganguly and Laxman - relatively inconsistent.

I'd pick the English lineup, on form. With Tendulkar in, It would be much more even.

OK, then, let's make some comparisons...

Cook - has proven himself magnificent at bashing rubbish bowling on flat pitches - now he needs to actually show that he can do the job against the seaming ball. I'm absolutely sure that he can - but he needs to, y'know, do it.
Vaughan - waste of space when he's opening the batting.
Strauss - waste of space generally, especially at three.
Pietersen - scored 1 fifty-plus score in 6 Tests the just-finished winter.
Collingwood - very average batsman, never yet made chanceless scores of note on anything but the very flattest (and often slowest) of pitches.
Bell - basically read Cook.
Ambrose - played 3 Tests.

I'd have India's in an instant over ours right now, though it's fair to say both have their demerits.

In short, even if we compare the best possible immediate line-ups:
Jaffer = Strauss (both useless)
Sehwag > Cook (much as it should be the other way around)
Dravid > Vaughan
Tendulkar > Pietersen
Laxman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Collingwood
Ganguly > Bell (both been non-seaming-track bullies for most of their careers, though Ganguly's better right now)
Ambrose vs Dhoni = no real comparison (much as I hope Ambrose may end-up better)

 

[DaRick]

Pretty sure Lee's only played 3 Tests in the subcontinent, all against a rabble Pakistan. Nor has he bowled well against England either in England or Australia.

Well, he has, but only occassionally ( Lords 2005, Trent Bridge ENG 2nd Innings 2005, Old Trafford ENG 1st Innings 2005, Melbourne and Sydney 2006/07 and at a stretch, Edgbaston 3rd morning 2005).

On the main topic, yeah, well done to Steyn. I knew he had it in him, even in 2004/2005, when he was just a greenhorn who intermittently bowled jaffas but went for plenty. There was just something about him that I didn't see in other quicks his age...Shaun Tait, for instance.

By the way, Strauss>Jaffer...not like they're really comparable anymore, although Strauss performed against better opposition on livelier decks from 2004-2005 (?) than Jaffer ever has.

 

[Richard]

Undoubtedly, Strauss > Jaffer over their careers, but from the start of 2006 he's been next to useless, and as bad as if not worse than Jaffer.

 

[TT Boy]

I'm think it's a bit strange that Lee is considered so superior to Steyn given the fact that:

-Lee only really has the last two series on Aussie wickets where he's proven himself as his side's main strike bowler

-he has never played and performed in the subcontinent like Steyn has

But Steyn has never faced a good batting line-up...

 

[Richard]

Until recently, he hadn't. His demolition job at Motera was comfortably the best performance of his career.

 

[Woodster]

How long before we're hailing another South African quickie, Morne Morkel. Quick, hostile, tall, potentially up there with Steyn, Lee etc in 12/18 months ?

 

[Richard]

Morkel remains thoroughly unconvincing so far - but so did Steyn early in his career. Of course, just because one went from poor to excellent doesn't mean another neccessarily will, but Morkel undoubtedly like Steyn has assets - in his case, great height rather than an excellent seam-position and speed.

Morkel needs to both gain some extra control and find a way to move the ball away from the right-hander, and if he can do that he'll be one hell of a proposition.

 

[Nishant]

Top order - 31.6%
Middle order - 33.3%
Tail - 35%

Vaas and McGrath got 41.6% and 40% of the top order.

LH batsmen - 25.64%
RH batsmen - 74.35%

very good work there mate!!! Thanks for the stats!

 

[Nishant]

* Of late it has been only in the ODI format. I do wonder if Kathik would do a better job.

That definitely a debate that used to go on some time back....but one that still has a bit of spark to it IMO....Tbh..im all for Dhoni...i like the way he bats and he has become a lot more responsible these days ( i still remember the way he got out in the 2nd innings of the 3rd test in Mumbai against england in 2006!!)...but Kartik may be a 'safer' option at no.6...but of course, as i said, this is very much open to debate.

 

[Nishant]

Morkel remains thoroughly unconvincing so far - but so did Steyn early in his career. Of course, just because one went from poor to excellent doesn't mean another neccessarily will, but Mørkel undoubtedly like Steyn has assets - in his case, great height rather than an excellent seam-position and speed.

Morkel needs to both gain some extra control and find a way to move the ball away from the right-hander, and if he can do that he'll be one hell of a proposition.

completely agree!

 

[Woodster]

Morkel remains thoroughly unconvincing so far - but so did Steyn early in his career. Of course, just because one went from poor to excellent doesn't mean another neccessarily will, but Mørkel undoubtedly like Steyn has assets - in his case, great height rather than an excellent seam-position and speed.

Morkel needs to both gain some extra control and find a way to move the ball away from the right-hander, and if he can do that he'll be one hell of a proposition.

Morkel has only displayed potential so far, obviously. He has a long way to go before we can start putting him anywhere near the bracket of Brett Lee. It is now a case of if he can convert that potential and make best use of all his natural attributes to consistently trouble the finest batsmen in the world.

 

[Termanati]

Career wise... Lee > Steyn.. Only becasue hes been around longer.

Current form??
Steyn > Lee.

And, steyn hasnt bowled against quality batsmen? WTF is that all about, Hes demolished NZ, WI, PAK, And now India... Whos left in regards to Quality Batsmen?? Not england... ONly Aus... and on that note... LEE DOESNT BOWL AGAINST AUS... which is his greatest advantage.

Lee did well against India... IN AUS....
Steyn is doing well against india in india...

Steyn wasnt good when he started his career?? Damn... He was a 20 year old, pulled out of first class cricket after something like 7 games... He hadnt even grown into his body...
And he was the most threatening bowler in that SA england series.... Sure he bowled some wayward deliveries... but HIs Deliveries to vaughn, The first time he got his patented off stump cartwheeling delivery, was identical to dravid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im0NodxUeKU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUiUsKZtOg


And To Trethscotich (gawd damn thats a butchery of the spelling) with the inswinger to the left hander, showed his class...

Steyn can be a bit erratic, but usually when he goes for runs, its because the batsmen are edging through hte slips / gulley etc... LOTS of runs against steyn go there... then he will try too hard and bowl a bad ball..

The greatest thing about steyn is though, he can be having a bad game (Ie the latest test, he was bowling a shower of s**t) to start, but you know, the next time he gets a spell, hes likely to get 3 or 4 wickets in it... He has done it every test so far...

And looking at that average of who he gets out... its pretty even, 1/3 of his wickets come from the top, mid, and lower order... Which means hes doing the job at all stages of hte game, Crucial in a test match.. being hte opening overs, the reverse swing when the batsmen tend to dominate, and the mopping up of the tail (which lee couldnt do against India in oz)

All in all, Steyn is a scary bowler to face, not becasue he is fast, which he is, but becasue of the movement he gets at all times, Late away swing in the mid 140;s to open, and reverse inswingers in the high 130s when the ball is old...

Anyone who has played on SA , and/or aus tracks, knows, that a guy bowling 145, and moving it like Steyn, is > than a guy bowing at 150, and is pretty much straight IE Lee/johnson.
Look at this comparison for world rankings on bowlers... while stats dont show everything.. this shows alot...

http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/player-comparison-results.php?stattype=bowling&name=lee&name_selected=2292&name2=steyn&name_selected2=2542&type=Compare

Lee broke the 750 point barrier after 8 years in intarnational cricket...
Steyn?? 3 years

Re Morkel... He bowls it easily in the 150;s, but until he learns to get the ball coming out with the seam perfect like steyn, he will only be good..not great...

 

[Top_Cat]

I don't necessarily disagree with Steyn being in better form but the below is simplistic;

And, steyn hasnt bowled against quality batsmen? WTF is that all about, Hes demolished NZ, WI, PAK,

All pretty ordinary batting line-ups right now, at home or away. Their records in the last 5 years prove it. When was the last time any of them won a series on the back of their batting against even a mid-table team?

And now India...

In one Test played on a very advantageous deck where Ntini took the big wickets and Steyn cleaned up the tail (which he did well, let's not take too much away from him). He bowled okay in the first Test after an ordinary start, though. In Australia, there were nothing but pancake flat decks all summer and Lee was at the very least threatening on each of them. He took a bundle of wickets, yes, but he didn't take them in hauls of 6 or 7; he spread them out over the whole summer. Every time he had the ball in hand, he was a handful to face against a batting line-up which had an in-form Tendulkar, Ganguly (before that series) and Laxman on pitches which absolutely suited them.

Anyone who has played on SA , and/or aus tracks, knows, that a guy bowling 145, and moving it like Steyn, is > than a guy bowing at 150, and is pretty much straight IE Lee/johnson.

So you didn't see Lee bowl then? Was far from straight up-and-down. Johnson was a bit samey at times but Lee, far from it.

 

[gettingbetter]

One of the best batsmen of the modern era doesn't say anything about current form. And Dhoni has never been all that good in Tests, as you mention. Sehwag is always hot and cold, and while Jaffer has been solid in India, there is no way he can last against anyone who has pace or if the pitch assists them.

Considering the pitch in the first Test, it is pretty irrelevent what people scored. Scoring 70 on that pitch is not really a plus - you'd back most FC batsmen to have a great shot at a 50+ score.

Can't get any more current than the last Test he played where he did score a hundred.

 

[Burgey]

Undoubtedly, Strauss > Jaffer over their careers, but from the start of 2006 he's been next to useless, and as bad as if not worse than Jaffer.

Strauss = walking advert for the old maxim "Never muck around with good form". Coming into the Ashes summer hee last year, he was in spanking form - looked a million bucks. Gets to Brisbane, 2 poor pull shots, then the demons came in from there on in. Was remarkable watching it happen at the time.

 

[gettingbetter]

Add to the fact that he wasn't, but should of been captain.

 

[Top_Cat]

Strauss = walking advert for the old maxim "Never muck around with good form". Coming into the Ashes summer hee last year, he was in spanking form - looked a million bucks. Gets to Brisbane, 2 poor pull shots, then the demons came in from there on in. Was remarkable watching it happen at the time.

Amazing how quickly good form can leave you. Rick Ponting was the same going into the 2001 series against India yet he barely scored a run all series and didn't look like doing so.