Richard Johnson for England?

[marc71178]

I'm pushing Johnson not only because he has proven in the last 3 seasons that he is worth the step up by taking around 70 wickets at an average of 21 in each of them...

These are the same last 3 seasons when he's taken 43 @ 21.25, 62 @ 23.77 and 50 @ 28.58 are they?

Not even close to 70 @ 21.

Besides that - getting wickets in County Cricket is not any indicator of a bowlers quality.

Look at the likes of Simon Brown, Dominic Cork (in more recent times), James Ormond, Chris Lewis, Peter Martin, Alan Mullally, Ian Salisbury, Chris Silverwood, Mike Smith.

All of those have had or are having very good county careers, but have been tried and proven that their good enough for Test Cricket.

What we need is to identify that little something in a young bowler, and stick with him.

The same people calling for changes are the people who moan when people don't get given a chance to prove themselves (and I don't mean just on here)

 

[Rik]

These are the same last 3 seasons when he's taken 43 @ 21.25, 62 @ 23.77 and 50 @ 28.58 are they?

Not even close to 70 @ 21.

Besides that - getting wickets in County Cricket is not any indicator of a bowlers quality.

Look at the likes of Simon Brown, Dominic Cork (in more recent times), James Ormond, Chris Lewis, Peter Martin, Alan Mullally, Ian Salisbury, Chris Silverwood, Mike Smith.

All of those have had or are having very good county careers, but have been tried and proven that their good enough for Test Cricket.

What we need is to identify that little something in a young bowler, and stick with him.

The same people calling for changes are the people who moan when people don't get given a chance to prove themselves (and I don't mean just on here)

Right so Harmison has no control and a lot of pace so we should stick with him?

All the players you mentioned other than Salisbury who is at best an average leg-spinner and Chris Lewis who is one of the mysteries of English cricket in the sense of why was he constantly picked...have been given very few chances to play. Actually, Mullally, Cork, and Martin have had quite successful International Careers and Silverwood still could.

I'm calling for players who have performed and from what I've seen have the ability and they should be given a go. Look what happened when the WIndies called on Vasbert Drakes...when he was playing for Warwickshire I wasn't very impressed but he's turned into a fine bowler for them, Johnson, Dean, Kirtley et al could quite easily make a success on the big stage, you can only perform against who you are put against.

I feel that this board of Selectors will pick someone and even if they perform on the tour they won't play, they have a set idea on the side. In Pakistan, Hoggard took 11 wickets or so extreamly cheaply (average about 10) and wasn't given a sniff of a chance of playing, and Johnson's performance in India showed he was more worthy of a Test place than Ormond...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "You will never know unless you give them a go" and yes Marc, not even you know how they will do.

 

[Slats4ever]

he's been good value for me on INternational Cricket Captain
i don't see why he wouldn't make it in test cricket then

 

[Rik]

he's been good value for me on INternational Cricket Captain
i don't see why he wouldn't make it in test cricket then

Hahahaha...cause in that game Ormond and Bulbeck are 2 of the greatest players ever to play the game...oh and also because selections are not based on computer games?

 

[marc71178]

Right so Harmison has no control and a lot of pace so we should stick with him?

He has the little something they look for - it's already been stated that he was very admired in Australia, and they seem to know a thing or two about good players!

 

[Rik]

He has the little something they look for - it's already been stated that he was very admired in Australia, and they seem to know a thing or two about good players!

Yes how they average over 50 with the ball in Tests and in ODIs they can't even bowl straight. I'm sorry but the only thing that caught the Australian spectator's eyes was that he bowled fast and was one of only 2 pace bowlers England stuck with.

Anyway you still haven't given me a reason for not giving Johnson or Dean a go other than "they are blatently not good enough" when they blatently are. Come on Marc...

 

[Anna]

Originally posted by Rik
Hahahaha...cause in that game Ormond and Bulbeck are 2 of the greatest players ever to play the game...oh and also because selections are not based on computer games?

Bulbeck could still make it :P.......if his back stays together

Well that's my opinion. I doubt many others would share it, but hey

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

selections are not based on computer games?

Say it isn't so!! All my life's beliefs crumbled upon that statement.

Re Dean: Fine prospect. He should definitely be playing for England. He also adds some variety to the attack.

Re: Harmison: haven't seen much of him, but he seems a bit like Tino Best - quick, but not the maturity to bowl with consistent control. Fear not, the control will come, in a few years, he's pretty young yet.

Re: Johnson: One of the harder working bowlers in the game. A very consistent bowlers in terms of line, length and results. Also, he has shown that he's no mug with the bat. The next Cork?

 

[marc71178]

Anyway you still haven't given me a reason for not giving Johnson or Dean a go other than "they are blatently not good enough" when they blatently are. Come on Marc...

And you're still to give me a reason why the time and money invested in Harmison, Jones and others should be discarded.

 

[Rik]

And you're still to give me a reason why the time and money invested in Harmison, Jones and others should be discarded.

Do I need to give a reason? I thought it would have been staring you in the face! Harmison has not repaid any of that faith! At the moment everyone I talk to sees him as more of a handicap for the team than anything else. I will not comment on Jones because he's been injured and hardly had a chance. When I have seen him he's been impressive but needs some more work.

 

[Rik]

Yes how they average over 50 with the ball in Tests and in ODIs they can't even bowl straight.

Correct that to 41 in Tests.

 

[marc71178]

Harmison definitely impressed the Aussies, and has impressed Fletcher and the like enough to get a 6 month contract.

But since you don't like him, I can obviously see why he should never play cricket again.

 

[Rik]

Harmison definitely impressed the Aussies, and has impressed Fletcher and the like enough to get a 6 month contract.

But since you don't like him, I can obviously see why he should never play cricket again.

I have nothing against him other than the fact that he obviously has no control, all he has is pace, you can't just pull control out of a hat you know...

I can't see what you have against Johnson, Dean and co though. Since you don't like them I suppose they should just stop trying because they'll never get the chance?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But since you don't like him, I can obviously see why he should never play cricket again.

Since you don't like them I suppose they should just stop trying because they'll never get the chance?

Oh come on! Give me a break. This debate is deteriorating into childish jabber.

 

[marc71178]

I have nothing against him other than the fact that he obviously has no control, all he has is pace, you can't just pull control out of a hat you know...

That is the reason for his contract - he has a little something, and they want to hone it. Besides I think it's very harsh to condemn a man when the bowling he's done has been against India on fairly flat high scoring pitches and Australia in Australia.

I can't see what you have against Johnson, Dean and co though. Since you don't like them I suppose they should just stop trying because they'll never get the chance?

I have never said I don't like them, but success at county cricket doesn't go anywhere near to giving people success in Tests (just look at the long list of top county performers who have continually underperformed at Test level)

 

[Neil Pickup]

Harmison has not repaid any of that faith! At the moment everyone I talk to sees him as more of a handicap for the team than anything else.

:rolleyes:

What does the guy have to do? He did more than was expected of him in the Ashes. We've agreed that he's not suited to ODIs, but he is deserving of the test place!

 

[Rik]

:rolleyes:

What does the guy have to do? He did more than was expected of him in the Ashes. We've agreed that he's not suited to ODIs, but he is deserving of the test place!

What does the guy have to do? Take wickets. Is everyone here blind or something? The guy averages 41 per wicket in Tests, that is what he needs to improve upon. If he can take wickets at a reasonable average then he will be worthy of a Test place. I think Marc and yourself need to look carefully and realise that it's not how fast you bowl, it's how cheaply you take your wickets that matters. That's what bowling all about and allways will be.

 

[Rik]

I have never said I don't like them, but success at county cricket doesn't go anywhere near to giving people success in Tests (just look at the long list of top county performers who have continually underperformed at Test level)

Actually to be fair most of the top county performers have either not been given the chance or been given very few.

You can only do well against who you are put against, that's why I wish the A team was still in place so Kirtley, Dean, Saggers and Johnson could have a chance to show their quality. Success may not go too far towards success at Test Level but picking Harmison who has had one moderately successful season (50odd wickets at 27) and enough unsuccessful ones looks a pretty insane choice. Not only has he not been able to take wickets consistantly against "weak" opposition, but also he's not managed it at Test level.

 

[marc71178]

You keep mentioning this poor record of his, but when you consider he's bowled in 8 innings, only 1 of which he has failed to take a wicket in.

So far 3-57 out of 357, 2-63 out of 424-8 against India.

Then in Australia he's got 2-106 out of 552-9, 1-86 out of 456, 0-108 out of 551-6, 2-43 out of 107-5, 3-70 out of 363 and 1-42 out of 226.

So the England bowlers have collectively averaged 44.65 in Harmison's 5 Tests so far.

All of a sudden it doesn't look quite so bad.