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Indian stock bowlers- why can't they last longer?

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Not about Indian pace (or swing) now. We've heard enough of that. With that raging debate elsewhere about India playing six batsmen or five bowlers, I now ask, why can't any of India's batsmen step up for the missing bowler? Why can't they last longer?

Talent-wise, at least two of India's batsmen are good enough to play alongside four of their bowlers, as bowlers. That would help a lot, as when you have two spinners as your best bowlers, you can have the batsman bowling seam-up as a third seamer, getting the best of both options, even abroad. If three seamers are the way to win, they can have one batsman bowling spin regularly, even replacing the second spinner in India, on green-tops, to prepare for tours. But this reluctance to bowl, as well as lack of captain's faith in these bowlers, has weakened them a lot.

In the current lineup, Sehwag has often shown a lot of promise as an off-spinner, getting turn, and also enticing the batsman on more occasion than one. In fact, he's often outperformed at least one Indian spinner on most occasions. What does he get? An extended hour on the field, and when he does bowl, the field is spread out. He's a tricky customer, bowling very slowly, and yet doesn't even get to bowl the final ODI overs! It's had its effect, as he's occasionally bowling no-balls, now bowls two long-hops an over and vanishes after two overs.

Kumble has often to lead a lone charge abroad, and when it isn't him, Harbhajan has to do the same. Sehwag could have done so much to help either with the ball then. But instead, we see over 40 overs bowled by the lone spinner (or both) and over 30 overs by their best seamer, even when their spears have been blunted. As many as twenty dead overs are bowled in each match by the bowlers- and any twenty overs by Sehwag could have changed things.

Way back in 1996, we saw Tendulkar bowl some neat, often prodigious leg-breaks. He tried to attack, and succeeded. That was when there were no all-rounders after Prabhakar retired. Having established himself as a batting great, he could have been to India what Kallis is to South Africa. But years of non-practice have reduced him, as a bowler, to someone who occasionally ambles down the wicket, bowls a mix of leg-breaks, off-breaks and straight seam-up, with at least two bad balls an over. That is, if he ever gets to bowl.

Ganguly made it to the team as an all-rounder, and started off as a capable seam bowler. But somehow, that has been forgotten and now he looks an apology of a seamer- terribly lazy run-up, lack of pace and an action that looks like that of a toddler bowling off-spin. Yet, when given an extended run, he's often bettered the inexperienced Indian seam attack, but then, his extension ends there. Let's not even talk of Yuvraj, he isn't any good at all. Or the others, who never seem to bowl a ball.

The absence of any steady, regular bowling option in the batting lineup has resulted in the selectors repeatedly picking some bits-and-pieces players or getting Irfan Pathan or Ramesh Powar to bat at seven. And the results from that have been decent, though unspectacular. But if you had this batting lineup in full strength, and one of them doubled up as a stock bowler, it could help the Indian team a lot more, couldn't it?
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
By stock bowlers, do you mean back up bowlers?

If so, I feel that one of the reasons is the scapegoat mentality of the Indian management to pit a player's problem in one skill of the game to overconcentration in their weaker skill. An example is Irfan Pathan batting at three in ODIs in 2006/7. Rather bizarrely, it was attributed to his bowling downfall.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
By stock bowlers, do you mean back up bowlers?

If so, I feel that one of the reasons is the scapegoat mentality of the Indian management to pit a player's problem in one skill of the game to overconcentration in their weaker skill. An example is Irfan Pathan batting at three in ODIs in 2006/7. Rather bizarrely, it was attributed to his bowling downfall.
That's primarily a theory flaunted by Mumbai Mirror, a renegade offshoot of Times Of India.

Let's not forget, some out-of form batsmen were advised to bowl, so that the confidence they got would help their batting.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
New Zealand seam-bowlers - why can't they last longer?

Why do they keep getting injured or having the management lose faith?
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
England seam-bowlers - why can't they last longer?

Why do they keep getting injured or having the management lose faith?
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Australia seam-bowlers - why can't they last longer?

Why do they keep getting injured or having the management lose faith?
















Sorry, will stop now. :p But you get the point - seam-bowlers do get injured, it's an unfortunate trick of the trade.
 
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Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
This thread is about back-up bowlers getting lack of confidence from management though.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Injury has played its part for India, though - as has lack of confidence from management for other teams.

Will modify the above post(s :p) to reflect that TBH.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Read the first post (FFS). Arjun is talking about Tendulkar, Ganguly and Sehwag not getting faith with the ball.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Oh yeah... so he is. :shy:

TBH, never thought any were good enough to be front-line bowlers, or to bowl any more than they have done. Certainly not to perform the role of stock-bowlers.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
I feel that Ganguly is underbowled by India. He is a good bowler for breaking partnerships and probes the corridor well.

PS: Did you get those WC99 top speed figures?
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
My word...what a misunderstanding!

As I told you earlier, this is NOT about Indian seamers. It's about India's 'batsmen who can bowl' not lasting long in an innings- either lack of faith of management, or just plain lack of interest of the players in question themselves.
 

bond21

Banned
Since when was Ganguly or Sehwag a stock bowler?

Theyre part time bowlers at best...

A stock bowler is someone like Shaun Pollock.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
I feel that Ganguly is underbowled by India. He is a good bowler for breaking partnerships and probes the corridor well.

PS: Did you get those WC99 top speed figures?
Merely breaking partnerships and ambling off the pitch after two overs are not enough. He has to bowl full-time to be of any use.

Look at Kallis. We've seen him stock up eighteen overs an innings for a long time, even when he was bowling no faster than 120k for some time.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Since when was Ganguly or Sehwag a stock bowler?

Theyre part time bowlers at best...

A stock bowler is someone like Shaun Pollock.
That's been the problem. They've never contributed significantly with the ball, in comparison to, say, Gayle or Kallis.

Then the Indians wouldn't have to sneak in a fifth bowler or a so-called bits-and-pieces player.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Look at Kallis. We've seen him stock up eighteen overs an innings for a long time, even when he was bowling no faster than 120k for some time.
Kallis is a batting all rounder, Ganguly, Tendulkar and Sehwag are batsmen who can bowl. Furthermore, whereas Kallis bowls the odd spell in the 120s (seen him bowl spells in the 130s and bowl consistently over 140kph before), Ganguly is exclusively at 110-125kph.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
The confusion obviously over the term 'stock bowler'. 'Part time' or 'fill in' may be a better term.

As for the answer, I wouldnt worry about it. You only need 10 overs a day approx. They dont have to be good, they just need to offer something different like Richards, Border, Boycott etc have done to a certain extent.

4 bowlers are enough to get the job done. 20 overs a day isnt an issue. Less than 1 spell per session. 'Part timers' are there to fill in if a rest is needed, or the game is meandering or to try something different.

I wouldnt be too bothered about how good they are. Obviously the better they are the better it is, but you are not going to win games (obvious rare example excepted) with the fill-in bowlers.

Sehwag and Ganguly are just fine, as long as they are not expected to fulfil a front line responsibility.

EDIT- Interestingly, Im looking at a random scorecard and it happens to be a game that India went into with only 2 specialist bowlers. Amazing.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Kallis is a batting all rounder, Ganguly, Tendulkar and Sehwag are batsmen who can bowl. Furthermore, whereas Kallis bowls the odd spell in the 120s (seen him bowl spells in the 130s and bowl consistently over 140kph before), Ganguly is exclusively at 110-125kph.
Ganguly, Tendulkar and Sehwag could have been batting all-rounders and solved (somehow) a problem plaguing the Indian team struggling to take wickets. Man for man, each of them can bowl as many overs as Kallis, Gayle, Styris and Oram. While Kallis has bowled those spells in the 130's and even 140's, Ganguly is still useful as a 110k bowler. Besides, there's no reason why he can't increase his pace, if so many bowlers in other teams can increase theirs. And Gayle isn't much of a turner- just very sticky, and Sehwag can do just as well.
 

bond21

Banned
Kallis is an exceptional bowler in his own right though, I imagine he would be a top line bowler for his FCC side in SA or county cricket in england.

Gayle is like Andrew Symonds but not doesnt have the medium pace option. He just bowls 100k and puts it on the spot, nothing special, hes a part timer but gets more of a bowl because WI dont have a decent spinner.

for ODIs you only need 4 bowlers to bowl 10 overs, then 1 bowler to bowl 10 or 2 to bowl 5 each or whatever.

They dont have to be top line bowlers, ie Clarke and Symonds bowl for Aus in ODIs, and rarely bowl in test matches, theyre just there to keep the runs down and maybe get a wicket because the batsman might relax with lee and johnson out of the attack.

Someone like Sehwag is good for ODIs because he just fires it in, not trying to spin it like Warne, knows his job.

Tendulkar flights it too much and a good batsman will punish him if he gets it slightly wrong.

But yea Kallis is a batting all rounder, although you wouldnt expect an all rounder to be one of the best batsmen in the world but he is.
 

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