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View Poll Results: Who was the better Test match all-rounder?

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  • Ian Botham

    40 78.43%
  • Andrew Flintoff

    4 7.84%
  • Adam Hollioake

    7 13.73%
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Thread: Botham vs Flintoff?

  1. #31
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Interestingly, as good a batsman as Botham was, I still think the gap is far wider with the bowling.

    Flintoff was great in 2005 but Botham early was great nearly all the time. Botham could do so much with the ball and was willing to try anyting.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    It had nothing whatsoever to do with his weight?
    Not at all. He was bowling at the Parks in 1980 on a cold day and didn't bother to loosen up and he felt a twinge in his back. He put it down to his lack of preparation and carried on bowling. By the end of the match he had to finish the over he was bowling using off spin because he was struggling with back stiffness. X-rays discovered that he had a deformity of the spine. The specialist he saw at the time was of the opinion that surgery to correct the deformity wasn't guaranteed to be successful and could make it worse. From then on he always had discomfort in his back whenever he bowled, sometimes a minor niggle which disappeared soon after he stopped bowling and sometimes great pain, more often than not it would be somewhere in between.
    He eventually had surgery on his back several years later and it wasn't until after that he even had any weight problems.

  3. #33
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Strange poll and thread.
    I don't neccessarily think it is. I know what I think, and I know what some others think, but want to gauge a wider consensus.

    Similar, in fact, than Imran Khan vs Wasim Akram as bowlers. SJS put it well - he was expecting it to be closer than it should have been, and somehow it turned-out more CWers thought Wasim the better bowler than Imran.

    I knew what I hoped the result would be (didn't expect it to be this spectacular, was expecting it to be more like the previous poll from JASON which I've never come across before) but I wondered if the general youthfulness of this forum would impact in any way on the results.
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  4. #34
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I don't neccessarily think it is. I know what I think, and I know what some others think, but want to gauge a wider consensus.

    Similar, in fact, than Imran Khan vs Wasim Akram as bowlers. SJS put it well - he was expecting it to be closer than it should have been, and somehow it turned-out more CWers thought Wasim the better bowler than Imran.
    Wasim and Imran are far closer as bowlers than Botham and Flintoff (unless its the middle-latter part of Bothams career being looked at).

    Also this thread isnt about just bowling is it? Botham far superior batsman and bowler


  5. #35
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    I know, but SJS has no doubt Imran is notably superior to Wasim as a bowler, but still created the thread (and was rather surprised by the outcome). Equally I have no doubt Botham is superior to Flintoff as an all-rounder but wanted to see if I'd be surprised by consensus.

    Not so, however.
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  6. #36
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I know, but SJS has no doubt Imran is notably superior to Wasim as a bowler, but still created the thread (and was rather surprised by the outcome). Equally I have no doubt Botham is superior to Flintoff as an all-rounder but wanted to see if I'd be surprised by consensus.

    Not so, however.
    Yeah. I mean even the most young and naive would realise without ever seeing Botham that when Flintoff has played 67 Tests and has 2 fifers and Botham had that many after 2 Tests, its not hard to do the maths.

  7. #37
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    That low number of five-wicket-hauls remains one of the most incongruous things about Flintoff. I simply cannot understand it. Flintoff has been, often fairly comfortably, England's best Test-match bowler since about July 2004. Yet he's still taken just a single five-for in that time.

    Biggest difference, I guess, between an average of 26 and one of 18.
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  8. #38
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    I was thinking this after I alluded to it yesterday. Potentially because at his peak, Harmison, Jones and Hoggard were all taking wickets as well. Alas, it never stopped other greats, such as McGrath and Warne, from taking hatfuls all the time.

    It just strikes me that Monty has about seven or eight, Flintoff has just two, who would I ask to bowl for my life? Flintoff every time. odd stat.

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  9. #39
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    That low number of five-wicket-hauls remains one of the most incongruous things about Flintoff. I simply cannot understand it. Flintoff has been, often fairly comfortably, England's best Test-match bowler since about July 2004. Yet he's still taken just a single five-for in that time.

    Biggest difference, I guess, between an average of 26 and one of 18.
    Just one of those blokes, I think, who never did a huge amount with the ball. He relied on seam movement, especially before 2005, and as I said, when he swung the ball, he was infinitely more dangerous as a bowler. So many of his really good wickets in 2005 came from hooping out and in-swingers rather than seam-up outside off. Probably would have had a better record had he been playing for Australia because I reckon his style of bowling would have suited Aussie conditions.

  10. #40
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    He hasn't retired you know...

  11. #41
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Just one of those blokes, I think, who never did a huge amount with the ball. He relied on seam movement, especially before 2005, and as I said, when he swung the ball, he was infinitely more dangerous as a bowler. So many of his really good wickets in 2005 came from hooping out and in-swingers rather than seam-up outside off. Probably would have had a better record had he been playing for Australia because I reckon his style of bowling would have suited Aussie conditions.
    Oh yeah, of course, but even in 2005, when he was bowling as well as I've ever seen pretty much anyone bowl over the course of a series, he still took just a single five-for.
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  12. #42
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    Ian Botham was thrice the allrounder Andrew Flintoff is.
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  13. #43
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Botham's early-mid 80s hair style and 'tache >>>>>>>>> the Flintoff reverse skunk hair thingy, imo.
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  14. #44
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Reverse skunk?
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  15. #45
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Pat Rafter, Aussie tennis player, has dark hair witha white patch in it - he said it makes him feel like a skunk. Flintoff is fair haired, with a dark spot in it, hence the "reverse skunk". Sorry - very obtuse on my part.

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