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Thread: Where are the Black Batsmen?

  1. #16
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    Nice read.

    Yep. Quite an analysis into the reasons there. However one needs to really understand :

    "How much of a priority is cricket as a game to a black child in South Africa, given the still relatively poor economic background he/she is born and brought up?"

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  4. #19
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer StumpMic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret View Post
    2ndly, there are instances of bowling centric players like Shastri, Imran, etc turn into better batsmen but the reverse has not been true, which makes me ponder if bowling is something that can be taken up anytime, while batting needs access to proper coaching from early years

    Afridi is an example of a batsman who turned into an above average bowler.

    Those Black students that attend such impressive institutions often hold the cultural belief that weight gain and obesity is a sign of wealth and stature. Those Black students who attend schools that produce great batting talent are disproportionately overweight, unathletic and uninterested in sport, and are not in a position to excel in cricket. The irony is that those Blacks in a privileged position capable of gaining all the advantages in sports development held by wealthy Whites are often uninterested and incapable. Tessa van der Merwe of the International Association for the Study of Obesity said, "when being overweight is seen as a sign of health and wealth, it is extremely difficult to change this perception."
    So we are to believe that rich black kids are lazy and fat? So they turn to bowling? There have been plenty of overweight batsman in world cricket over the years and next to none overweight bowlers. So how come if rich black kids are overweight they end up being bowlers and not batsmen? And, given that SA produces so few spinners am I to believe these fat kids end up as fast bowlers?


  5. #20
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StumpMic View Post
    So we are to believe that rich black kids are lazy and fat? So they turn to bowling? There have been plenty of overweight batsman in world cricket over the years and next to none overweight bowlers. So how come if rich black kids are overweight they end up being bowlers and not batsmen? And, given that SA produces so few spinners am I to believe these fat kids end up as fast bowlers?
    They don't do anything really in cricket.

    The bowlers come from a different socio-economic group.

    The point is that the top white batsmen (not bowlers) often come from from certain wealthy institutions. Greatly disproportionally the Black students at these schools are less interested in sport and in poor shape and can't take advantage of the same opportunities as the more intense and aggressive (especially Afrikaans) White childeren.

    As I said, wealth and opportunity plays a large part in batting development in South Africa. The Black Africans that are wealthy are culturally and physically different to the poor Black Africans where the good athletes (such as soccer players) are predominently drawn from.

    The article clearly explains that, regards less of race, batsmen and bowlers are being found in different places and are not produced evenly by the same proccess. It is the opposite of what you think is being said, that the rich Black Africans turn to fast bowling. The reality is that bowlers are being produced away from the areas traditionally producing batting.

    Quote Originally Posted by StumpMic View Post
    And, given that SA produces so few spinners am I to believe these fat kids end up as fast bowlers?
    The answer is, of course not. Nowhere is that even suggested. It is the opposite of what is explained.
    Last edited by Goughy; 15-03-2008 at 04:06 AM.
    If I only just posted the above post, please wait 5 mins before replying as there will be edits

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  6. #21
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    Very interesting read. I have next to no knowledge about the technical aspects of cricket so that was really informative, answered my question very thoroughly too.

    Was actually quite suprised when I turned on one of the U-19 WC games and saw SA had a black wicketkeeper, so unused to it, though I think he only played in some of the earlier games.

  7. #22
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    I put it down to cost of equipment, after all one cannot expect to develop as a qualty batsman if one cannot even afford a quality bat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StumpMic View Post
    Afridi is an example of a batsman who turned into an above average bowler.
    With all due respect to your right to make an opinion, ------>

    He is a good 20-20 bowler perhaps.

    Average/Mediocre ODI bowler (Refer the Indo-Pak 2007 ODI series summary for proof)

    Nothing Test bowler

    He remains the same batsman he debuted however.

  9. #24
    ret
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Firstly, Id rather you actually read the piece if you are going to make comments disagreeing with it

    Secondly the situation is quite different to that of India. India has large numbers of the population playing cricket at a young age and wanting to be cricketers. It may just be street cricket or tennis ball cricket but it is important in batting for it to feel natural and a 2nd instinct to be developed. This familiarity with the sport from a young age exists in India but not Black South Africa. Technique isnt essentially added as a tiny boy, it is added later upon a foundation of being comfortable with the bat and hitting the ball. You make comparisons with India, as I said there are a number of reasons why this is different to India, however the Indian system is also hardly efficient at producing talent. There are a billion people in India and the system inefficiently produces talent below that of Australia with a pop of 18 million.

    As for your final point about being able to come to bowling late. It happens. Over coaching of seam bowlers is a common theme in selectorial talks in modern day cricket.

    Increasingly bowlers that are newer to the game and with a less forced and technical action are being looked for as they generally have greater potential, understand their own games better (as they worked it out for themselves) and bowl quicker.
    what we can take from Ind's example is
    1. even though it lacks gr8 coaching facilities it produces some gr8 cricketers
    2. there is a cricket culture in Ind
    3. inspite of having a cricketing culture, Ind talent pool is not comparable to say OZ's as OZ's hv better coaching/cricketing facilities

    so what i would deduct from this is that if there were a positive cricketing culture in the Black South African community then they would hv produced some good cricketers, including batsmen, and overcome some of the limitations that they face

    now the Q is why there isn't a positive cricket culture amongst the Black in RSA? And what can be done to establish such a culture amongst the Blacks? Do they need a Black icon player to motivate them to take cricket as a career option? .... Other thing I would like to know is how successful Blacks are in other sports in South Africa

    When I look at other African teams like Kenya who hv produced some good Black batsmen like Steve Tikalo & Maurice Odumbe despite some limitations in that country, I wonder why no Black batsman has come through the South African ranks in that manner?


    Lastly, I found this on the net

    http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info...cancricket.htm


    below are some quotes from it

    Drawing on rare 19th century African-language newspaper sources, family photo albums and extensive interviews, author Professor Andre Odendaal provides an intimate account of a rich cricketing culture that began with the establishment of the first black mission school cricket sides and clubs in the 1850s.

    Odendaal demonstrates, through colourful stories and vivid photographs, that the game has been played with passion and commitment by black South Africans in inter-town tournaments, village games and national bodies for well over 100 years in a parallel, but largely hidden, tradition to that of their white counterparts.
    In his foreword to the 370-page coffee-table book, former President Nelson Mandela writes: "During the apartheid era, black people were deliberately erased from history, and their experiences were negated. Now, as we enjoy the benefits of a hard-fought democracy, it is important to correct these exclusions. This book, focusing on one small aspect of our national life, shows how big they have been."
    That is when he came across an Imvo editorial arguing that white South Africans needed to realise that blacks were "rough diamonds" that could become as polished as anybody else in playing cricket, and in all other aspects of life, if given the chance.
    Receiving the first copy of the book from UCB CEO Gerald Majola this week, Sport and Recreation Minister Ngconde Balfour said: "Despite the major strides made by the game of cricket, there remained a vacuum of untold stories - until now ... The book lays to rest the myths that blacks have no real culture or tradition of cricket and rugby."

    Balfour said the book captured the glory, the struggles and the heartache of the country's unheralded black cricketers.

    "It is an inspiring story that will both enthrall and inform. In a real sense, it restores and cements the dignity and pride of generations of cricketers who were denied the opportunity to play the game they loved in circumstances that others took for granted."
    Last edited by ret; 15-03-2008 at 06:57 AM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    You are so not getting it.
    let's take the case

    Premise1: Initiator - Bowler [as he bowls and sets the ball in motion]
    Premise 2: Reactor - Batsman [as he reacts to the bowler]
    Deduction, acccording to you [based on the theory you proposed] - Batsman is in a tougher position

    Initiator - Batsman [as he hits the ball and sets the ball in motion]
    Reactor - Fielder [as he reacts to the batsman]
    Deduction - Fielder is in a tougher position

    So if the theory is NOT subjective then it should hold true in the above case .... If not then it's irrelevant to the discussion like I mentioned b4

  11. #26
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret View Post
    what we can take from Ind's example is
    1. even though it lacks gr8 coaching facilities it produces some gr8 cricketers
    2. there is a cricket culture in Ind
    3. inspite of having a cricketing culture, Ind talent pool is not comparable to say OZ's as OZ's hv better coaching/cricketing facilities

    so what i would deduct from this is that if there were a positive cricketing culture in the Black South African community then they would hv produced some good cricketers, including batsmen, and overcome some of the limitations that they face

    now the Q is why there isn't a positive cricket culture amongst the Black in RSA? And what can be done to establish such a culture amongst the Blacks? Do they need a Black icon player to motivate them to take cricket as a career option? .... Other thing I would like to know is how successful Blacks are in other sports in South Africa

    When I look at other African teams like Kenya who hv produced some good Black batsmen like Steve Tikalo & Maurice Odumbe despite some limitations in that country, I wonder why no Black batsman has come through the South African ranks in that manner?


    Lastly, I found this on the net

    http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info...cancricket.htm


    below are some quotes from it
    Great, now let me ask you a question.

    Have you actually invested time and effort in Black African cricket or are you making an argument based on what you read in a book once?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Great, now let me ask you a question.

    Have you actually invested time and effort in Black African cricket or are you making an argument based on what you read in a book once?
    I haven't invested time in Black African cricket but I m making my comments based on what I hv read .... in the same way, i read ur article

    If the point that u r making is that I m making comments on what i read once then I would ask the reason for posting ur article here coz most ppl are like me here. i.e. hv not invested time in Black African cricket, and u r asking for a discussion on what we rad in that article [I doubt if many here would hv invested time on this issue]

    Although, I skimmed through ur article, i felt it was pretty good and made me think abt that issue and thats the reason why I m posting here and giving you my 2 cents on the issue

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret View Post

    When I look at other African teams like Kenya who hv produced some good Black batsmen like Steve Tikalo & Maurice Odumbe despite some limitations in that country, I wonder why no Black batsman has come through the South African ranks in that manner?

    Legend has it Steve Tikolo learnt his technique by imitating the Indian kids who lived over the fence from where he grew up. But that's just legend

  14. #29
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    Firstly thanks to Goughy for writing the piece. It's a touchy old subject, and he deserves credit for his contribution to the subject. Admittedly from where I'm sat, some of the cultural generalisations sound extreme, but I haven't been there, so I can't argue with any sort of authority. It's a shame CW doesn't (afaiaw) have any black SA members who could comment into those issues.

    Beyond that, the view that it may take a generation to turn things around may well be true, but that shouldn't stop people trying. Similar comments could have been made about the WI cricket team and Brazilian football team in the first half of the 20th century, and we all know what followed.

    Finally, I hope someone will do justice to the piece that ret posted regarding the history of black cricket in SA. That wasn't the first I had read about it - IIRC I think the issue was also raised in Peter Oborne's book about D'Oliveira, or may be Mike Marqsee's 'Anyone But England' - but I wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert. However, clearly there is a different view on the matter, and it would be a shame if it was simply dismissed because it doesn't suit current thinking.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid View Post
    Admittedly from where I'm sat, some of the cultural generalisations sound extreme,
    Really such as what? No more extreme than commenting that Basketball being a minority sport in England or Rugby League being more popular in the North.

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