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Thread: Waugh, Border or Ponting?

  1. #31
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    As a batsman, Waugh. All three are/were clearly brilliant batsman though.

    As a captain, Border.
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  2. #32
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Batsmen - Ponting, Border, SWaugh

    Captain - SWaugh, Border, Ponting

    3, 2, 1 voting would have everyone level on 4.

    Add in Taylor (best capt, worst bat) and everyone is still locked, this time on 5.
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  3. #33
    School Boy/Girl Cricketer Dusty Lee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Batsmen - Ponting, Border, SWaugh

    Captain - SWaugh, Border, Ponting

    3, 2, 1 voting would have everyone level on 4.

    Add in Taylor (best capt, worst bat) and everyone is still locked, this time on 5.
    My favourite cricketer of all time is Steve Waugh but i think Border is probably the best captain of the three. He led Australia through and out of a very tough time in Australian cricket. The captaincy was thrust upon him and he didn't even want it and when he was finished Australia was the power house of world cricket. Through Steve Waugh Australia became a more attacking side though he probably had a better team of individuals than both Ponting and Border.

    Ponting is probably the more natural batsmen of the three but if we were in a tough spot Steve Waugh is the batsmen I would want out there, his guts and determination was second to no man.
    Last edited by Dusty Lee; 23-02-2008 at 12:05 AM.

  4. #34
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    I think Border's captaincy was overrated. What did he actually do that was so amazing as a captain?

    His batting can not be questioned though, he was awesome, but I think he would have done the same job even without the captaincy beside his name.


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    I think Border's captaincy was overrated. What did he actually do that was so amazing as a captain?
    I think you're right. Then again I believe captaincy is overrated - period. As long as he's respected as a player and person by the team it shouldn't make too much difference.

  6. #36
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    AWTA, very strongly. Cannot believe this "second most important job in Australia" stuff is ever said with any apparently genuine sentiment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Lee View Post
    My favourite cricketer of all time is Steve Waugh but i think Border is probably the best captain of the three. He led Australia through and out of a very tough time in Australian cricket. The captaincy was thrust upon him and he didn't even want it and when he was finished Australia was the power house of world cricket. Through Steve Waugh Australia became a more attacking side though he probably had a better team of individuals than both Ponting and Border.
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  7. #37
    International Debutant iamdavid's Avatar
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    I'm going for Waugh on the captaincy front with little hesitation, I know the side's he captained were probably ever so slightly superior to Pontings and well ahead of anything Border captained.However the way he did away with the book in an effort to be his own man (things like setting umbrella fields on occasion and regularly employing an 8/1 or 7/2 offside field, things which had not really been seen with any regularity before but became common under Waugh).

    The way he put such emphasis on being positive from any situation, eg. not using nightwatchman anymore as it sent a negative message to the opposition. Regularly bowling first because he knew the opposition feared his attack. Going to India and vowing to "win it with pace" (I know it didnt work...but if not for Laxman and Harbhajan it would have), the way he went into the Mumbai test with three seamers and elected to field despite typically Indian conditions was extremely brave and really showcased the qualities that made his such a good skipper in my eye, not to mention it came off as they bowled India out for under 200 and won the match.

    No doubt Australia when Waugh inherited the captaincy were already a very good side, however under him (and also under Buchanan it must be said) they really did take things to the next level and get the absolute most out of themselves, I think S Waugh deserves alot of credit for that.

    Border had tons of guts and a never-say-die attitude but tactically he seemed pretty limited and at times his man-management and general mood seemed pretty crappy.
    He certainly did hold Australia together single-handedly at times and he instilled in a generation of young cricketers the win-at-all costs attitude and great work ethic that had made him such a great cricketer. However I get the feeling his stint in charge has been overly-glorified due to how dominant Australia have been since. Although tbh I'm not 100% qualified to comment because I never watched cricket during his captaincy and all I've observed are results, replays and opinions of his tenture.

    Ponting has always had a very consultative style of captaincy getting plenty of help from his generals out there...Warne, Lehmann (while he was around), Gilchrist, Hayden...
    Tactically I think he's a notch below what Waugh was however with the side he's had the results havent shown it...yet. As has already been mentioned the way he handles things over the next 3 years or so will be his legacy.

    On the batting front I find the three of them extremely difficult to split and you couldnt blame anyone for ranking them in any order.
    Ponting the more talented of the three and with the more expansive, attacking game however he will always have the issue of pitches/attacks not being what they used to. Ponting has been amazing since 2002, but how many times has he had to play on tracks like the one Waugh made his twins hundreds on at Trent Bridge (I think) in 1997 or his 60 odd not out against Ambrose and Walsh in 1995.
    I cant remember one wicket since 2002 even approaching that level of assistance for the bowlers.

    Border and Waugh both got absolutely everything out of themselves against some fine attacks in often challenging conditions.

    I'll go for Waugh as the better batsman aswell...simply because I like him better than the other two lol.

  8. #38
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    Border, probably on both counts. May not have been the best captain, but I think it can be argued that he was the most influential in shaping the 1990/2000s cricket world. And he basically did what Lara did for a decade, albeit not quite as dynamically.

  9. #39
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamdavid View Post
    Ponting has been amazing since 2002, but how many times has he had to play on tracks like the one Waugh made his twins hundreds on at Trent Bridge (I think) in 1997
    Old Trafford TBH.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    I think Border's captaincy was overrated. What did he actually do that was so amazing as a captain?
    Well, for one, he got Australia their first World Cup, an upset win. Something that Taylor could not do with the likes of Warne, McGrath, Ponting (albeit younger ones) in his lineup.

  11. #41
    International 12th Man deeps's Avatar
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    Captain
    1. Waugh
    2. Border
    3. Ponting

    Batting
    1. Waugh/Ponting Tie
    3. Border

    Reasoning:

    Waugh inherited a strong team. It was a solid team, right up there with the best of the world, but they were never considered unbeatable. He turned this solid team, into a top notch, world class team, which very rarely lost a match. The important thing to remember, particularly in test matches, was that when Waugh's team did lose a match, it almost always involved a member of the other team playing a super human innings.

    We think back to Lara in the West Indies playing those amazing innings' and Laxman and Dravid in India etc. These were all 'miracle' innings. The opponents playing well would not see them beat Australia, they had to create a miracle to beat Australia. That is how good Waugh's team was.

    Pontings team on the other hand, has lost to teams like Bangladesh (unheard of in the Waugh era), lost the Ashes to England, amongst other things. They certainly don't look anywhere near as dominant now as they did under Waugh.

    Ponting also plays favourites with his bowling changes. One example I can site, is that when Brad Hogg played his test matches earlier in the series, Tendulkar was taking him to the cleaners playing two shots in particular. A slog sweep sort of shot, and a paddle sweep. Ponting refused to put fielders there to cut off this shot, and Tendulkar continued to play the shot over and over again. After a few overs, he took Hogg off, and gave it to his best friend Andrew Symonds. It appeared that Hogg had continually been asking for a man to cover the slog sweep. Ignoring the above example, me and many of my mates have noticed that he is very slow, sometimes obstanant not to change the field.

    Border was a good captain, who used his resources brilliantly. I don't think he was as influental on the team as Waugh. Border however was very influental on Waugh himself.


    As batsman, Waugh faced the best of the best. Ambrose, Waqar, Wasim, etc. We saw in England that when the ball started to swing, the Aussies, including Ponting, had no idea. They made Harmison look like a champion. Even now in Australia, the pitch has a little something for the bowlers, and Ponting struggles. He came across one flat pitch now, and he made 100+

    Waugh was batting on hard pitches against top notch bowlers for most of his career, and succeeded. He was not a flat track bully. I'm not saying Ponting is, but when the ball starts to do things, he, like most of the Australian team at the moment, really struggles.

  12. #42
    International Coach howardj's Avatar
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    Border was the most effective batsman, but he did have more of a chance to show his wares as, in my view, he played against superior attacks.

  13. #43
    International Regular shortpitched713's Avatar
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    Batting:
    1. Ponting
    2. Waugh
    3. Border

    Captaincy:
    1. Waugh
    2. Border=Ponting (situations were too different to compare captaincy, but both have been good)
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  14. #44
    Cricket Spectator khawi's Avatar
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    Where is MArk Taylor?
    Last edited by khawi; 25-02-2008 at 10:56 PM.

  15. #45
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    Waugh both as captain and Batsman

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