BhupinderSingh
Banned
- Allan Border
- Steve Waugh
- Ricky Ponting
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Waugh, Border or Ponting?
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
As a batsman I’d have Ponting at the top of the pile - his performances over the past few years, even in this era of highways for pitches and half-size boundaries, have been something else. Very little between the other two, though Border just edges it for me, leaving Tugga unluckily in third. He shouldn’t feel too bad though – for what it’s worth, I consider all three among the top six batsmen ever produced by Australia.
As skippers, they were all very much products of their time IMO – and as has been noted already, none of them were a match for Mark Taylor as tacticians. AB wasn’t a great tactician himself but he was the kind of man for whom the phrase “lead by example” might have been invented. He inherited a team at its absolute lowest ebb and was on a hiding to nothing for so long that he just sucked it up and dragged Australia kicking and screaming back to competitiveness, and left a legacy that his successors have been able to build on so successfully. What he did for Australian cricket in the 1980s should never be underestimated or forgotten.
Waugh was a different beast, though cut from a lot of the same cloth. He inherited a dominant team from Tubby and of course his principal working brief was to maintain that dominance. With the team he had at his disposal he was always a good chance to do that, but to his credit he was also determined to stamp his own mark on the team – the mentality to risk defeat in order to increase the chance of winning, the reverence for the Baggy Green cap and the responsibilities to the game and its previous wearers that wearing it entailed, the steely-eyed determination to never be satisfied with past achievements and to always want more.
Punter has made his mistakes and I still stop short of considering him a particularly outstanding captain, though he has certainly improved markedly over the past couple of years and seems to be doing his best to grow into the job. I think his captaincy will be defined, though, by the next few years. He has over the past 18 months lost three of the greatest players ever to represent Australia, along with two or three other outstanding cricketers, and the retirements of at least Hayden and one or two others will come sooner rather than later. You don’t just replace players like that, and it would be naïve to think that Australia’s winning percentage won’t diminish, even if slightly. What will make or break him, in my opinion, is not merely how many matches and series he wins but also how he handles the transition from the previous generation to the next and manages both the team and, importantly, himself through this period.
As it stands then, I can’t really split Border or Waugh as skippers and have both ahead of Ponting. Punter’s challenge is to make me re-think that order over the coming years.
As skippers, they were all very much products of their time IMO – and as has been noted already, none of them were a match for Mark Taylor as tacticians. AB wasn’t a great tactician himself but he was the kind of man for whom the phrase “lead by example” might have been invented. He inherited a team at its absolute lowest ebb and was on a hiding to nothing for so long that he just sucked it up and dragged Australia kicking and screaming back to competitiveness, and left a legacy that his successors have been able to build on so successfully. What he did for Australian cricket in the 1980s should never be underestimated or forgotten.
Waugh was a different beast, though cut from a lot of the same cloth. He inherited a dominant team from Tubby and of course his principal working brief was to maintain that dominance. With the team he had at his disposal he was always a good chance to do that, but to his credit he was also determined to stamp his own mark on the team – the mentality to risk defeat in order to increase the chance of winning, the reverence for the Baggy Green cap and the responsibilities to the game and its previous wearers that wearing it entailed, the steely-eyed determination to never be satisfied with past achievements and to always want more.
Punter has made his mistakes and I still stop short of considering him a particularly outstanding captain, though he has certainly improved markedly over the past couple of years and seems to be doing his best to grow into the job. I think his captaincy will be defined, though, by the next few years. He has over the past 18 months lost three of the greatest players ever to represent Australia, along with two or three other outstanding cricketers, and the retirements of at least Hayden and one or two others will come sooner rather than later. You don’t just replace players like that, and it would be naïve to think that Australia’s winning percentage won’t diminish, even if slightly. What will make or break him, in my opinion, is not merely how many matches and series he wins but also how he handles the transition from the previous generation to the next and manages both the team and, importantly, himself through this period.
As it stands then, I can’t really split Border or Waugh as skippers and have both ahead of Ponting. Punter’s challenge is to make me re-think that order over the coming years.
Johnners
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ponting is clearly the better batsmen of the 3 imo, however I'd probably rate Waugh ahead of him as a captain, but only just. I can't really judge Borders captaincy because I quite simply haven't seen enough of it.
I started to read an intersting article (was in the Bulletin) when I was waiting at the doctors the other day by Chappeli in regards to captaincy. The article was titled "Why Ponting is a better captain than Waugh". I didn't get far into it though before I had to go, but I one thing I do recall him saying was that he thought Ponting tried to get set Batsmen out, whereas in his eyes, Waugh seemed to sit back and wait for things to happen (He used the Follow-on loss to India in '01 as an example) and that was one the main reasons he thought Ponting was better.
Thoughts?
I started to read an intersting article (was in the Bulletin) when I was waiting at the doctors the other day by Chappeli in regards to captaincy. The article was titled "Why Ponting is a better captain than Waugh". I didn't get far into it though before I had to go, but I one thing I do recall him saying was that he thought Ponting tried to get set Batsmen out, whereas in his eyes, Waugh seemed to sit back and wait for things to happen (He used the Follow-on loss to India in '01 as an example) and that was one the main reasons he thought Ponting was better.
Thoughts?
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
I haven't read the article but I'm not sure I'd agree with that argument - I'm sure you could find instances both ways with both men over the course of their respective captaincies. Would require further thought and investigation I think.
I think the most important thing to remember about that article though Clapo is the author. I like Chappelli more than many on these pages and think that most of the time he knows his stuff, but his dislike of Steve Waugh knows few bounds. He'd be just about the last bloke I'd choose to write an objective piece on anything Waugh-related.
I think the most important thing to remember about that article though Clapo is the author. I like Chappelli more than many on these pages and think that most of the time he knows his stuff, but his dislike of Steve Waugh knows few bounds. He'd be just about the last bloke I'd choose to write an objective piece on anything Waugh-related.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I've said this a few times, to a few people: apart from his own performance, what is there that he can do to "handle" the loss of such players? He cannot make the cricketers coming in any better than they are. The only people who can truly influence what happens next in Australian cricket is the players coming in now. Not anyone in the management.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
No he can’t make the incoming players any better, which is why I made the point about him being judged on his performance as a leader as much as results. If the next generation of Australian cricketers aren’t quite as dominant as the previous – highly likely given how extraordinarily good the previous generation has been – then it’s only natural that his winning record as their captain will diminish. If that’s the case, what I would want to see then is how well Ponting copes through such a period where the success is not unbroken, how he handles the pressure from internal and external factors, how well his tactical and man-management skills improve to get the very best out of the players he has and how he develops as a leader of men and a representative of both his country and the game of cricket. That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about.
PhoenixFire
International Coach
Interesting that you rate Border as a better batsman than Waugh and Ponting.
subshakerz
International Coach
I wouldn't go that far. Border and Waugh averaged over 50 in bowler-friendly eras, so if Ponting is better, it's not by much.
Dusty Lee
School Boy/Girl Cricketer
My favourite cricketer of all time is Steve Waugh but i think Border is probably the best captain of the three. He led Australia through and out of a very tough time in Australian cricket. The captaincy was thrust upon him and he didn't even want it and when he was finished Australia was the power house of world cricket. Through Steve Waugh Australia became a more attacking side though he probably had a better team of individuals than both Ponting and Border.
Ponting is probably the more natural batsmen of the three but if we were in a tough spot Steve Waugh is the batsmen I would want out there, his guts and determination was second to no man.
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I think you're right. Then again I believe captaincy is overrated - period. As long as he's respected as a player and person by the team it shouldn't make too much difference.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
AWTA, very strongly. Cannot believe this "second most important job in Australia" stuff is ever said with any apparently genuine sentiment.
Probably?(!)
I'm going for Waugh on the captaincy front with little hesitation, I know the side's he captained were probably ever so slightly superior to Pontings and well ahead of anything Border captained.However the way he did away with the book in an effort to be his own man (things like setting umbrella fields on occasion and regularly employing an 8/1 or 7/2 offside field, things which had not really been seen with any regularity before but became common under Waugh).
The way he put such emphasis on being positive from any situation, eg. not using nightwatchman anymore as it sent a negative message to the opposition. Regularly bowling first because he knew the opposition feared his attack. Going to India and vowing to "win it with pace" (I know it didnt work...but if not for Laxman and Harbhajan it would have), the way he went into the Mumbai test with three seamers and elected to field despite typically Indian conditions was extremely brave and really showcased the qualities that made his such a good skipper in my eye, not to mention it came off as they bowled India out for under 200 and won the match.
No doubt Australia when Waugh inherited the captaincy were already a very good side, however under him (and also under Buchanan it must be said) they really did take things to the next level and get the absolute most out of themselves, I think S Waugh deserves alot of credit for that.
Border had tons of guts and a never-say-die attitude but tactically he seemed pretty limited and at times his man-management and general mood seemed pretty crappy.
He certainly did hold Australia together single-handedly at times and he instilled in a generation of young cricketers the win-at-all costs attitude and great work ethic that had made him such a great cricketer. However I get the feeling his stint in charge has been overly-glorified due to how dominant Australia have been since. Although tbh I'm not 100% qualified to comment because I never watched cricket during his captaincy and all I've observed are results, replays and opinions of his tenture.
Ponting has always had a very consultative style of captaincy getting plenty of help from his generals out there...Warne, Lehmann (while he was around), Gilchrist, Hayden...
Tactically I think he's a notch below what Waugh was however with the side he's had the results havent shown it...yet. As has already been mentioned the way he handles things over the next 3 years or so will be his legacy.
On the batting front I find the three of them extremely difficult to split and you couldnt blame anyone for ranking them in any order.
Ponting the more talented of the three and with the more expansive, attacking game however he will always have the issue of pitches/attacks not being what they used to. Ponting has been amazing since 2002, but how many times has he had to play on tracks like the one Waugh made his twins hundreds on at Trent Bridge (I think) in 1997 or his 60 odd not out against Ambrose and Walsh in 1995.
I cant remember one wicket since 2002 even approaching that level of assistance for the bowlers.
Border and Waugh both got absolutely everything out of themselves against some fine attacks in often challenging conditions.
I'll go for Waugh as the better batsman aswell...simply because I like him better than the other two lol.
The way he put such emphasis on being positive from any situation, eg. not using nightwatchman anymore as it sent a negative message to the opposition. Regularly bowling first because he knew the opposition feared his attack. Going to India and vowing to "win it with pace" (I know it didnt work...but if not for Laxman and Harbhajan it would have), the way he went into the Mumbai test with three seamers and elected to field despite typically Indian conditions was extremely brave and really showcased the qualities that made his such a good skipper in my eye, not to mention it came off as they bowled India out for under 200 and won the match.
No doubt Australia when Waugh inherited the captaincy were already a very good side, however under him (and also under Buchanan it must be said) they really did take things to the next level and get the absolute most out of themselves, I think S Waugh deserves alot of credit for that.
Border had tons of guts and a never-say-die attitude but tactically he seemed pretty limited and at times his man-management and general mood seemed pretty crappy.
He certainly did hold Australia together single-handedly at times and he instilled in a generation of young cricketers the win-at-all costs attitude and great work ethic that had made him such a great cricketer. However I get the feeling his stint in charge has been overly-glorified due to how dominant Australia have been since. Although tbh I'm not 100% qualified to comment because I never watched cricket during his captaincy and all I've observed are results, replays and opinions of his tenture.
Ponting has always had a very consultative style of captaincy getting plenty of help from his generals out there...Warne, Lehmann (while he was around), Gilchrist, Hayden...
Tactically I think he's a notch below what Waugh was however with the side he's had the results havent shown it...yet. As has already been mentioned the way he handles things over the next 3 years or so will be his legacy.
On the batting front I find the three of them extremely difficult to split and you couldnt blame anyone for ranking them in any order.
Ponting the more talented of the three and with the more expansive, attacking game however he will always have the issue of pitches/attacks not being what they used to. Ponting has been amazing since 2002, but how many times has he had to play on tracks like the one Waugh made his twins hundreds on at Trent Bridge (I think) in 1997 or his 60 odd not out against Ambrose and Walsh in 1995.
I cant remember one wicket since 2002 even approaching that level of assistance for the bowlers.
Border and Waugh both got absolutely everything out of themselves against some fine attacks in often challenging conditions.
I'll go for Waugh as the better batsman aswell...simply because I like him better than the other two lol.
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Border, probably on both counts. May not have been the best captain, but I think it can be argued that he was the most influential in shaping the 1990/2000s cricket world. And he basically did what Lara did for a decade, albeit not quite as dynamically.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Old Trafford TBH.
Well, for one, he got Australia their first World Cup, an upset win. Something that Taylor could not do with the likes of Warne, McGrath, Ponting (albeit younger ones) in his lineup.