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Best All Time Test XII

Langeveldt

Soutie
tooextracool said:
i doubt you could all shaun pollock a genuine all rounder....he wouldnt make the test side on his batting alone. if you were looking at all rounders then why not pick botham,imran,kapil or hadlee who were all clearly better? i sense a little patriotism here.
Shaun Pollock is one of the best exponents of quick bowling in the modern Era.. And he averages 30+ in test cricket with the bat...

Hadlee would not have made the NZ side with the bat alone... Pollock is a superior bowler to both Kapil Dev and Botham...

Patriotism??? Where have I seen that before??
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
tooextracool said:
i doubt you could all shaun pollock a genuine all rounder....he wouldnt make the test side on his batting alone. if you were looking at all rounders then why not pick botham,imran,kapil or hadlee who were all clearly better? i sense a little patriotism here.
Pollock is a better bowler than Botham although the Englishmans batting and fielding put him ahead of Pollock in my pecking order, and Imran is for me the best post-Sobers allrounder of them all.

Pollock is a better batsman than Hadlee and only slightly worse bowler - both outstanding. I would put them equal.

How was Kapil better than Pollock? Kapil had greater potential to play big innings and was a more explosive batsman but in general his batting was of a similar standard to Pollock, and Pollock is a far better bowler. Pollock wins.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Langeveldt said:
Shaun Pollock is one of the best exponents of quick bowling in the modern Era.. And he averages 30+ in test cricket with the bat...
its amazing how that average drops when he plays the better bowling attacks of australia and india and in the recent series against NZ

Langeveldt said:
Hadlee would not have made the NZ side with the bat alone... Pollock is a superior bowler to both Kapil Dev and Botham...
yeah hadlee wouldnt have made it in the NZ side with the bat but neither would pollock, and hadlee was clearly a better bowler.
botham in his prime was as good a bowler as pollock was and miles ahead of him as a batsman. botham(for that matter even kapil dev) was a matchwinner with both ball and bat in test matches.....could pollock win a match with the bat?
yes most definetly patriotism
 

tooextracool

International Coach
a massive zebra said:
Pollock is a better batsman than Hadlee and only slightly worse bowler - both outstanding. I would put them equal.
im not so sure you could say that....hadlee played much better bowling attacks than pollock does now, and pollocks record against australia and india isnt nothing more than mediocre.
 

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
My Best XII

Greenidge (West Indies)
Gavaskar(India)
Tendulkar(India)
Bradman ( Australia- Captain)
Viv Richards(West Indies)
Gary Sobers( West Indies- Vice Captain)
Adam Gilchrist (Australia) (Wicket keeper)
Richard Hadlee(NZ)
Malcolm Marshall(West Indies)
Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
Alan Donald (South Africa)

12 th Man - Shane Warne (Australia)
Reserves - Brian Lara (West Indies), Glenn Mc Grath (Australia), Dennis Lillee(Australia), Matt Hayden.
Greenidge over Hayden - because he played against better bowling attacks, and better opposition.
Tendulkar over Lara- because consistency is greater from the little master.Lara has been shown to score big 100s to 400s against weak bowling attacks, but consistency lacks.
Richard Hadlee = Dennis Lillee (Richard included to be inclusive ie. to include one Newzealander.)
Alan Donald= Glenn Mcgrath (included again for the sake of inclusiveness -one South African)
Murali = Warne ( murali included because every good team needs some controversy)
 
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JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
My current Best XII-

Matt Hayden (Australia)
Michael Vaughan (England)
Sachin Tendulkar (India)
Rahul Dravid (India)
Ricky Ponting (Australia) (Captain)
Jacques Kallis (South Africa)
Adam Gilchrist(Australia) (Wicket keeper)
Shaun Pollack (South Africa)
Shane Warne (Australia - Vice Captain)
Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka )
Glenn McGrath (Australia) or Shane Bond (New Zealand) (Based on injury/fitness)

12 th Man- Shoaib Akhtar (Pakistan)
Reserves - Brian Lara (West Indies), Michael Kasparowicz (Australia), Darren Lehman (Australia), Hershelle Gibbs(South Africa)
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
tooextracool said:
its amazing how that average drops when he plays the better bowling attacks of australia and india

Since when have India had one of the better bowling attacks?
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
tooextracool said:
india at home have a very formidable spin attack.
Yes thats certainly true.

Kumble in India...... 41 2196.1 5194 235 22.10 10/74 2.36 56.0 16 4
Harbhajan in India.. 18 900.1 2240 96 23.33 8/84 2.48 56.2 9 2

Muraliesque performances by from both of them.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
tooextracool said:
could pollock win a match with the bat?
yes most definetly patriotism
Er.... Yes he has done on many occasions, and Im sure he will continue to do so...

And of course, attacking the arguer and not the argument will win you lots of respect , good one... :D
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Langeveldt said:
Er.... Yes he has done on many occasions, and Im sure he will continue to do so...

And of course, attacking the arguer and not the argument will win you lots of respect , good one... :D
when has pollock won a test match with the bat?

I found these stats interesting

pollock vs india in india 2.0
pollock vs SL in SL 14.33

seems like hes a pretty darn good player of spin too.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
modern day world xi(ie from the time i started watching cricket)

sunil gavaskar
graham gooch
brian lara
greg chappell
viv richards
imran khan
ian healy
malcolm marshall
shane warne
wasim akram
curtly ambrose

also considered: openers: gordon greenidge, des haynes, matt hayden; middle order: sachin tendulkar, allan border, javed miandad, martin crowe, steve waugh, david gower; all rounders: richard hadlee, ian botham, jacques kallis; specialist pacers: dennis lillee, michael holding, andy roberts, glenn mcgrath, allan donald; specialist spinners: muthiah murali, abdul qadir; wicket keepers: rod marsh, bob taylor

all-time world xi(taking a stab with what i have read and know of cricketing history)

barry richards
jack hobbs
don bradman
wally hammond
graeme pollock
gary sobers
imran khan
wasim akram
malcolm marshall
allan knott
syd barnes

also considered: openers: graham gooch, sunil gavaskar, len hutton; middle order: sachin tendulkar, brian lara, viv richards, allan border, javed miandad, george headley, everton weekes; all rounders: richard hadlee, ian botham, mike procter; specialist pacers: dennis lillee, michael holding, andy roberts, glenn mcgrath, allan donald, ray lindwall; specialist spinners: muthiah murali, shane warne, lance gibbs, clarrie grimmett, erapalli prasanna, derek underwood; wicket keepers: rod marsh, bob taylor, ian healy
 

Ford_GTHO351

U19 Vice-Captain
JASON said:
Richard Hadlee = Dennis Lillee (Richard included to be inclusive ie. to include one Newzealander.)
Alan Donald= Glenn Mcgrath (included again for the sake of inclusiveness -one South African)
Murali = Warne ( murali included because every good team needs some controversy)
I know that this is your team, but why pick a person just for the sake of inclusiveness when perhaps the other player you left out was better ;)
 

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
Ford_GTHO351 said:
I know that this is your team, but why pick a person just for the sake of inclusiveness when perhaps the other player you left out was better ;)
I have said the other player left out was just as good, not better.
 

JBH001

International Regular
Hmm this is difficult.
I assume, of course, that all players are to be considered in their primes and free of injury etc.
But here goes:

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. W. G Grace (c)
3. Sir Don Bradman
4. Sir Garry Sobers
5. Sir Viv Richards.
6. A C Gilchrist (wk)
7. Keith Miller
8. Shane Warne
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Muttiah Muralitheran
12. Ian Botham
 
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Langeveldt

Soutie
tooextracool said:
when has pollock won a test match with the bat?

I found these stats interesting

pollock vs india in india 2.0
pollock vs SL in SL 14.33

seems like hes a pretty darn good player of spin too.
You could argue his 111 against Sri Lanka in Centurion Park 2001 was a matchwinning innings with the bat.. Although the margin of victory was a big one, Sri Lanka were in command until his sensational partnership with McKenzie...
Ditto his innings at the same ground against India, but you guys boycotted that match :d

2) its like saying Saurav Ganguly is a useless batsman because he failed against the seaming ball in New Zealand...
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Langeveldt said:
You could argue his 111 against Sri Lanka in Centurion Park 2001 was a matchwinning innings with the bat.. Although the margin of victory was a big one, Sri Lanka were in command until his sensational partnership with McKenzie...
Ditto his innings at the same ground against India, but you guys boycotted that match :d

2) its like saying Saurav Ganguly is a useless batsman because he failed against the seaming ball in New Zealand...
nope my point is that hes failed against the good bowling attacks.....he hasnt done anything against australia and has failed against ind and SL away from home(ind and SL do have formidable attacks at home). add to this the fact that he failed against a good NZ attack in NZ recently and what do we have?
an all rounder(if you want to call him that) not worthy of being on the test all time XI if you ask me.
 

hellnback

Cricket Spectator
I remember in a book called "Test Cricket Lists", they had a section where they selected Test Team's from the person's surnames or name (as for the case of the sub-continent) plus also added those who played one or two tests and one for those who missed out on a team, and from what I can recall the 'H' team was immensely strong. In that team they had an idea, a selection that was from WAY out of the square, so far out of left field it wasn't in the same ballpark.

Their selection of wicket-keeper and who was positioned to bat at 7 was Hanif Mohammad. Their justification was that Hanif kept early in his career and very able in doing so, plus they could think of nothing more demoralising to a team to see Hanif Mohammad coming out and taking guard at 7.

Something worth thinking about, yip, imagine the opposing teams reaction.



Now these WORLD XI teams are always argumentative, and no-one can ever come up with the definitive team, averages are so subjective to times and conditions of the day.

Early days of Test cricket (say until the early 20's, late 10's) saw low averages for batsman & low averages/ high S/R's for bowlers on poorly prepared (compared with today) uncovered wickets, quick tests rarely lasting 4 or 5 days.

20's, 30's, & 40's saw averages in batting rise, this was helped in the combination of 'Timeless Tests' & better prepared wickets, although still uncovered, which still provided bowlers alot.

You get the drift??? Maybe if there was a way... like they do with inflation/deflation.

Go through every game, establish a '4 year block' work out average team scores etc and have multiplication factor that makes each 'block' even. Then work out everybodies adjusted averages, then compare.

But it's all just statistics, and here's the trouble about that...

There are three kinds of liars...men, women, and statistics!
--College Economics Professor

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
--Benjamin Disraeli

Do not put faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say.
--William W. Watt

Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
--Aaron Levenstein

A judicious man uses statistics, not to get knowledge, but to save himself from having ignorance foisted upon him.
--Thomas Carlyle

There are two kinds of statistics, the kind you look up and the kind you make up.
--Rex Stout

The invalid assumption that correlation implies cause is probably among the two or three most serious and common errors of human reasoning.
--Stephen Jay Gould, The Mismeasure of Man

When evaluating a model, at least two broad standards are relevant. One is whether the model is consistent with the data. The other is whether the model is consistent with the 'real world.'
--Kenneth A. Bollen, Structural Equations with Latent Variables

If your result needs a statistician then you should design a better experiment.
--Baron Ernest Rutherford

Having given the number of instances respectively in which things are thus and so, in which they are thus and not so, in which they are so and not thus, and in which they are neither thus nor so, it is required to eliminate the gerneral quantitative relativity inhering in the mere thingness of the things, and to determine the special quantitative relativity subsisting between the thusness and the soness of the things.
---M.H. Doolittle, 1887

...while a man is an insoluble puzzle, in the aggregate he becomes a mathematical certainty. You can, for example, never foretell what any one man will do, but you can say with precision what an average number will be up to. Individuals vary, but percentages remain constant. So says the statistician.
---Sherlock Holmes
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
hellnback said:
You get the drift??? Maybe if there was a way... like they do with inflation/deflation.

Go through every game, establish a '4 year block' work out average team scores etc and have multiplication factor that makes each 'block' even. Then work out everybodies adjusted averages, then compare.
This has been done by Charles Davis in his book 'The Best of The Best.'
 

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