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Supposed lack of quality bowling-do you lot think its starting to come right now?

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Since the turn of the century, I'd say there has been only a few years where the could be said a lack of quality in bowling existed. As a whole, the notion is irritating and, when someone spouts it like a generalisation, I feel they have not looked much at Cricket in the past to be making such an accurate comparison.

However, I do see a crop of bowlers that are coming through that can be the next McGrath/Waqar/Wasim/Donald, etc.
Bowling averages by decade:

1950s: 28.54
1960s: 32.10
1970s: 31.90
1980s: 32.09
1990s: 31.51
2000s: 33.74

Yes, it's very bad. If you discount the 1940s (due to the truncated time and lack of a lot of games), this has been the worst decade for bowling in the history of the sport.

And at the beginning of the decade, a couple good bowlers were still operating. Since 2003:

2003: 36.12
2004: 35.31
2005: 33.40
2006: 34.53
2007: 34.83

Feast on batsmen!
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Have said my piece on that before - the significant point is September 2001. A before-and-after then is most revealing.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Bowling averages by decade:

1950s: 28.54
1960s: 32.10
1970s: 31.90
1980s: 32.09
1990s: 31.51
2000s: 33.74

Yes, it's very bad. If you discount the 1940s (due to the truncated time and lack of a lot of games), this has been the worst decade for bowling in the history of the sport.

And at the beginning of the decade, a couple good bowlers were still operating. Since 2003:

2003: 36.12
2004: 35.31
2005: 33.40
2006: 34.53
2007: 34.83

Feast on batsmen!
Do you think that overcoaching has a part to play in the decline of bowlers?
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Do you think that overcoaching has a part to play in the decline of bowlers?
I think its probably a combination of flatter pitches, a lot of big stars retiring, and some promising youngsters being injury prone. Does overcoaching play a big role? I don't know - I'll leave that to people like Kev who can better analyze that. From my very limited experience though, a lot of coaches still try to radically model someone's action based on McGrath, or Holding, or whatever instead of encouraging and tweaking someone's natural action, and that, I'm sure, can't be good long term for someone.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Bowling averages by decade:

1950s: 28.54
1960s: 32.10
1970s: 31.90
1980s: 32.09
1990s: 31.51
2000s: 33.74

Yes, it's very bad. If you discount the 1940s (due to the truncated time and lack of a lot of games), this has been the worst decade for bowling in the history of the sport.

And at the beginning of the decade, a couple good bowlers were still operating. Since 2003:

2003: 36.12
2004: 35.31
2005: 33.40
2006: 34.53
2007: 34.83

Feast on batsmen!
Unfortunately, it says nothing about the quality of bowling and everything to do with batting approaches and pitches. The 90s had, quite easily IMO, the best bowling era. Yet the difference between the 90s and the 2000s (where there is supposed to be this chasm of difference) is 2.2 runs. Or compared with other eras, the difference is minuscule. Now, how does this translate into batsmen, like Hayden ;), averaging 20 more than what they would do in a tougher era? It does not add up. If we were to concede that flat pitches have contributed just to 1 run per era average, then the 2000s are no different to the rest of the history of cricket.

ALSO, you would do well looking at SR. Both of batsmen AND of bowlers. In batsmen, the average SR has risen immensely and in bowlers the average bowler now is much stronger than the average bowler of the 50's for example. For example, Sobers was an average bowler and often good. His figures are disgraceful by today's standards.

You should also factor in that we have essentially 2 minnow nations that really don't deserve Test status dragging those averages down. If when comparing players we take out those scores (as it seems apt to) then it must also be done here.

I am sure you will find most, if not all, your answers in the above. An even better exercise, actually list the bowlers of said eras in their respective teams and compare.

P.S. why not include the 40s? Hutton batted then ;).
 
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Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
I think its probably a combination of flatter pitches, a lot of big stars retiring, and some promising youngsters being injury prone.
Definately.

Does overcoaching play a big role? I don't know - I'll leave that to people like Kev who can better analyze that. From my very limited experience though, a lot of coaches still try to radically model someone's action based on McGrath, or Holding, or whatever instead of encouraging and tweaking someone's natural action, and that, I'm sure, can't be good long term for someone.
Certainly someone like Colin Croft would not have progressed through coaching with an action such as his; but I think that undercoaching of simple techniques (for the benefit of complex ones) could play a role too. I feel that with the age of biomechanics, coaches are starting to teach youngsters to put the front arm up without throwing the bowling arm at the target - or teaching a full follow through without teaching a brisk run up and long jump.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Unfortunately, it says nothing about the quality of bowling and everything to do with batting approaches and pitches.
From those stats, it is impossible to separate pitches and quality of bowling. But in the end, whether the bowlers have gotten worse, or pitches have gotten flatter, it means the same thing: batsman have it easier.

I highly doubt the 'batting approaches' thing is responsible for such a stark turnaround. If that were the case, the change would have been much more gradual, instead of off/on switch.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
You should also factor in that we have essentially 2 minnow nations that really don't deserve Test status dragging those averages down. If when comparing players we take out those scores (as it seems apt to) then it must also be done here.
Your point is taken and I'll run it again without the two minnows:

2003: 34.82
2004: 34.01
2005: 32.14
2006: 34.05
2007: 33.16

Average 33.63.

Slightly better, but still the worst decade ever, especially if you remove the minnows from the previous decades (by itself, its still the worse without doing that).
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
From those stats, it is impossible to separate pitches and quality of bowling. But in the end, whether the bowlers have gotten worse, or pitches have gotten flatter, it means the same thing: batsman have it easier.
You're missing the part about bowling SR. Very few (1-2?) bowlers in Miller's era, with Lindwall and all barely got below 60 SR. Obviously, the tighter you bowl the less likely you are to concede runs. It has little to do with testing batsmen and the quality of bowling. Run-restricting is only one aspect of bowling.

I highly doubt the 'batting approaches' thing is responsible for such a stark turnaround. If that were the case, the change would have been much more gradual, instead of off/on switch.
That's a highly naive thing to say. Why should it be gradual? Who said it wasn't? Anyway, since the advent of ODI and T20, Test cricket has been affected to play faster.

The average batting great in yesteryear would have an SR of 30-40, now the average is 50-60. How could you even dismiss this? It proves mostly the point of raising averages of bowlers as batsmen strike more per average.

Look at the economy rates of the past, Alf Valentine comes with an economy rate of 1.95. That is unheard of now in our era exactly because of such striking techniques. Murali and Warne cannot dream of such economies.

Yet the difference between eras is small. As I said also before, I'd like to know what the averages would be minus a Bangladesh/Zimbabwe.

The decade was truncated due to the war, so I don't put much stock in the overall stats (really only three years, and a couple of tours consists of all the Test cricket played).
And that means nothing. You are willing to remove the first 3 years of the 2000s to try and prove a point but you won't allow another 3 years in another decade to go against it? You do know there were also flat pitches in the 90s, right?

Sorry my friend, at least for me, those figures don't prove anything. Especially, considering I am quite familiar with their line-ups and I wouldn't suggest the 1960s had the the bowlers of the 1980s. Or that the gulf between the 2000s and previous decades is that large.

Furthermore, you'd still be very hard pressed to explain how such a difference translates into Hayden averaging what you said he'd average ;).

P.S. swing bowling has nothing to do with the pitch. And if we're talking about guys like Hayden, then the pitches inflating the averages of bowlers has nothing to do with their quality and hence puts that myth to rest.
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
That's a highly naive thing to say. Why should it be gradual? Who said it wasn't? Anyway, since the advent of ODI and T20, Test cricket has been affected to play faster.
It wasn't because the averages drop off quite quickly.

The average batting great in yesteryear would have an SR of 30-40, now the average is 50-60. How could you even dismiss this? It proves mostly the point of raising averages of bowlers as batsmen strike more per average.
Again, there has been a gradual trend in that direction, which does not make sense with the sharp drop offs in averages. That trend existed in the 90s too, yet the bowlers were actually gaining the upper hand compared to the 80s.

And that means nothing. You are willing to remove the first 3 years of the 2000s to try and prove a point but you won't allow another 3 years in another decade to go against it? You do know there were also flat pitches in the 90s, right?
Err, no. The stats I gave for the entire decade include all years. I've put the last five years because it has been worse in those five years. The decade as a whole still sticks out like a sore thumb as the worst time to be a bowler in history of Test cricket.

Furthermore, you'd still be very hard pressed to explain how such a difference translates into Hayden averaging what you said he'd average ;).
This is a different thread, the two are nominally related (and I did not mention Hayden in this thread as far as I can recall) due to the fact that Hayden and Sehwag benefit quite a bit from dead pitches. Swing is also affected by the pitch, many times the ball gets roughed up and loses its shine much faster. Also, the big exponents of swing bowling such as Wasim and people like that all retired this decade....who exactly was left that Hayden and Sehwag faced? Sehwag faced McGrath/Gillespie and couple other Aussie greats. Hayden faced...Pollock, I guess. Who else?
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
It is intriguing if you reduce the statistics purely down to pace bowlers only, or year-on-year since 1980.

The first stats show that strike rate is virtually unchanged throughout the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Bowlers take wickets as quickly as they have ever done.

Only three years in the last 29 have strike rates superior to 2008 so far (helped admittedly by Steyn, Ntini and Morkel this morning).

StatsGuru is wonderful.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
It wasn't because the averages drop off quite quickly.
You seem to miss the connection between batting SR and bowling Average. The more runs made (SR for batsman) off 100 balls, the higher a bowler's average will tend to be.

Now, if batsmen are taking more shots to score more runs per ball, as seems to be the necessity these days, then naturally a bowler's average will rise.

The only way a bowler can counter this is to restrict scoring or take wickets - which has it's own relationship; the more you gamble the more likely you are to take wickets but also to get hit off.

Now, in your stats you only take into account average. So you only see if they restrict runs, not if they restrict runs or take wickets or both. Bowlers nowadays not only restrict runs almost to the same extent, but their SR's are superior and this is dependent on taking wickets. So again, those stats actually say nothing about the quality of bowlers.

It is much more on the emphasis of restricting runs and the unwillingness of previous batsmen to strike at a higher rate. The SR of both the bowlers and batsmen in this era is staring you in the face. It's the most pronounced change in the game and gives way to the other slight changes.

Again, there has been a gradual trend in that direction, which does not make sense with the sharp drop offs in averages. That trend existed in the 90s too, yet the bowlers were actually gaining the upper hand compared to the 80s.
See below post re drop in runs

Err, no. The stats I gave for the entire decade include all years. I've put the last five years because it has been worse in those five years. The decade as a whole still sticks out like a sore thumb as the worst time to be a bowler in history of Test cricket.
It doesn't matter what it sticks out to be, you should include the first 3. And anyway, if we even use that measure, bullies like Hayden still did just as well then as now.

I mean, the assertion itself does not make any sense. In 2002 there were flat wickets, in 2001 there were flat wickets, all the way through the 90s and before there have been flat wickets. The Sub-continent has had largely dead wickets.

I mean, if your own hero McGrath is better in the 2000s than in the 90s, it should say something? What about Pollock? He does better in the 90s, where all these 'great' batsmen were supposed to have come from. Surely, the pitch isn't that effective? Otherwise, McGrath should have no peer, and difference between decades is mostly because of the pitch, which doesn't have much to do with swing anyway. :cool:


This is a different thread, the two are nominally related (and I did not mention Hayden in this thread as far as I can recall) due to the fact that Hayden and Sehwag benefit quite a bit from dead pitches. Swing is also affected by the pitch, many times the ball gets roughed up and loses its shine much faster. Also, the big exponents of swing bowling such as Wasim and people like that all retired this decade....who exactly was left that Hayden and Sehwag faced? Sehwag faced McGrath/Gillespie and couple other Aussie greats. Hayden faced...Pollock, I guess. Who else?
No, the ball gains as much, if not more shine by being hit around - again, with the batting SRs ;). Also, it wouldn't explain how guys like Wasim and Imran generated the kind of swing they did on those dead pitches in Pakistan.

Also, I showed you innings where Hayden came out on lively pitches and hit Wasim around. Hit Donald and Pollock around?

There's a great difference between Sehwag and Hayden. When Sehwag hits a huge score, most usually others did too. When Hayden did, it's the norm that he is the only one.

Also, if we're talking about Hayden, then what does it matter what the average of all bowlers are? What are the averages for all the great bowlers of the era that played in both? Since the argument is batsmen like him have been the ones taking these advantages to the bank.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Bowlers have barely declined in the 2000s. Batsmen are just scoring quicker. Ive gone over this in the past so Ill not detail it all again.

A change in attitude in batsmen has lead to increased scoring opportunities with marginal increase in risk. This added to good tracks and new bats (balls that would be a single race to the boundary now) means that bowlers are being unfairly judged.

Ill be honest, I just about remember 80s cricket and the bowling (with a few exceptions) was pretty ordinary. 90s, it was better and there were a number of really good bowlers but the overall standard wasnt too different to now.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Actually, never mind the math, here is the difference between batting through the decades:



And here including every team:

 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bowlers have barely declined in the 2000s. Batsmen are just scoring quicker. Ive gone over this in the past so Ill not detail it all again.

A change in attitude in batsmen has lead to increased scoring opportunities with marginal increase in risk. This added to good tracks and new bats (balls that would be a single race to the boundary now) means that bowlers are being unfairly judged.

Ill be honest, I just about remember 80s cricket and the bowling (with a few exceptions) was pretty ordinary. 90s, it was better and there were a number of really good bowlers but the overall standard wasnt too different to now.
I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again - for my money, the change in batting attitude is a result of a drop-off in bowling calibre and bowler-friendly pitches, and would not be possible against bowlers of the calibre and pitches of the routine seam\spin-friendliness of most of those in the 1990s. The bowler, not the batsman, controls the game. This is evidenced by the economy-rates of the small handful of bowlers who played and maintained their calibre across the divide.

However, without detailed pitchmaps such a theory cannot be proven either way.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again - for my money, the change in batting attitude is a result of a drop-off in bowling calibre and bowler-friendly pitches, and would not be possible against bowlers of the calibre and pitches of the routine seam\spin-friendliness of most of those in the 1990s. The bowler, not the batsman, controls the game. This is evidenced by the economy-rates of the small handful of bowlers who played and maintained their calibre across the divide.

However, without detailed pitchmaps such a theory cannot be proven either way.
Your arguments are circular though. Econ rates have increased as bowlers are not as good and we know they are not as good as economy rates have increased. Its flawed logic.

I can say I believe batting attitudes have changed as I see the same balls being treated differently than before.

Batting techniques are different now than 20 years ago. Players are attuned to playing on flat tracks with amazing bats, with full protective equipment from childhood and batting friendly bouncer and wide rules. A change of tracks may see the balance shift as batsmen are not as rounded as before.

Only 10 years ago you could bowl 6 bouncers in an over or bowl 6 balls a yard outside offstump or 6 balls in an over 2 feet down the legside. You are not allowed to do this anymore. Weapons (for good or bad) have been taken away from the bowler.

Anyone that suggests bowlers (as a group) from the 80s or 90s would keep similar econ rates in the modern game is deluding themselves.
 
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Swervy

International Captain
Bowlers have barely declined in the 2000s. Batsmen are just scoring quicker. Ive gone over this in the past so Ill not detail it all again.

A change in attitude in batsmen has lead to increased scoring opportunities with marginal increase in risk. This added to good tracks and new bats (balls that would be a single race to the boundary now) means that bowlers are being unfairly judged.

Ill be honest, I just about remember 80s cricket and the bowling (with a few exceptions) was pretty ordinary. 90s, it was better and there were a number of really good bowlers but the overall standard wasnt too different to now.
bob on
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Your arguments are circular though. Econ rates have increased as bowlers are not as good and we know they are not as good as economy rates have increased. Its flawed logic.
I don't see how that's flawed TBH. One equals the other. If I was saying one was true and the other wasn't, that'd be flawed.
I can say I believe batting attitudes have changed as I see the same balls being treated differently than before.
Without pitchmaps, I don't feel this can be anything more than supposition, really.
Batting techniques are different now than 20 years ago. Players are attuned to playing on flat tracks with amazing bats, with full protective equipment from childhood and batting friendly bouncer and wide rules. A change of tracks may see the balance shift as batsmen are not as rounded as before.
Undoubtedly so, IMO.
Only 10 years ago you could bowl 6 bouncers in an over or bowl 6 balls a yard outside offstump or 6 balls in an over 2 feet down the legside. You are not allowed to do this anymore. Weapons (for good or bad) have been taken away from the bowler.
I don't feel either of these being removed are a bad thing - not that, really, anyone did them very much.
Anyone that suggests bowlers (as a group) from the 80s or 90s would keep similar econ rates in the modern game is deluding themselves.
I'm not neccessarily saying that (add most of the 70s to the 80s and 90s BTW), though I don't believe it completely beyond question. I'm saying the likes of Damien Fleming and Paul Reiffel would do a damn sight better than the likes of James Anderson and Ajit Agarkar. And yes, so too would Darren Gough and Venkatesh Prasad.
 

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