Most Overrated Player?

[marc71178]

Well, Butcher's not done too bad this test has he?
The county game is devalued because there are too many taems, and thus too many players - maybe if there were no limit on foreigners, the standard would improve.

Fulton will never play for England because his career overall is average to say the best.

 

[Neil Pickup]

England has always had a large pro structure, whatever sport. There is too much tradition to destroy 1st class counties

Careers don't count - it's form that should. Trescothick hadn't had a particularly good career before he was picked

 

[marc71178]

And he wasn't in particularly good form either - he was picked because Fletcher knew he had class!

Same with Vaughan, going on figures he shouldn't really be there, but they know he has the quality to score runs.

Going on stats, Hick would still be in the team, but he's failed so many times that no-one would consider him any more.

 

[Anon2]

Hick is miles too inconsistent! Vaughan ace 'cos he's a Yorkshireman (I'm a bit biased there) and Trescothick our best opener.

 

[marc71178]

That's exactly my point - they weren't selected on form, and have succeeded.

 

[Neil Pickup]

But Butcher has been picked on "class" and failed. Repeatedly.

If Fulton cannot even have one chance (and Butcher has had many) then the system is flawed.

People who average highly in the county game will more often than not succeed at test level. There are exceptions (Hick) but not many.

 

[marc71178]

Yet again, it's utter tripe you spout:

Playfair has a list of batsmen with the highest averages in first class cricket careers who were going to play in England in 2001, or played in 2000.

To go down the 2001 list:

Lehmann
Hick
S Law
Crawley
Hussey
Ramprakash
Habib
A Brown
Cullinan
Blewett


Of that top 10, only 1 has had a successful Test career.

Going down the bowling, we get:

Saqlain
Dean
Hutchison
Bichel
Brown
Caddick
Drakes
Bicknell
Hoggard
Ormond

Only 2 there have had good Test careers, although Hoggard should have a good chance of having one.

 

[Anon2]

Listen. Hick came in and was doing exceptionally well for Worcestershire. He comes into the England team and plays like a village amateur who hasn't seen a cricket bat in his life. Now if you think he should be a certainty in the England squad, well.......

 

[marc71178]

Was that aimed at me?

I don't think Hick should be there, although I do feel he didn't have too bad a Test career, just not as good as his 1st class form suggested he should have had.

 

[Anon2]

Yes, it was aimed at you. Hick had a rubbish international career in my view.

 

[marc71178]

Rubbish is harsh - poor compared to his reputation on entering Test Cricket is more accurate, but at no point in this thread have I praised Hick so what exactly are you aiming at me?

 

[Neil Pickup]

To respond to you:

Lehmann - would be an England regular were he English
Hick - was affected by the acclimatisation period when he became English
S Law - as Lehmann
Crawley - better test ave than Butcher..
Hussey - Aussie
Ramprakash - it's temperament not talent the issue
Habib - like this guy's ever had a decent test chance!
A Brown - see Habib
Cullinan - class for SA for years
Blewett - see Lehmann/Law/Hussey

Saqlain - class
Dean - don't know where you got the stats from. 34 wickets in 8 matches @ 26.11 is not good. But he's only 24..
Hutchison - again, the guy is only 24. Why shouldn't he have a great test career ahead?
Bichel - Aussie. Again.
Brown - FOUR Matches last year. And how can you judge him on one test. Many many greats have 'failed' on their debuts
Caddick - class
Drakes - not played tests, can't judge him
Bicknell - yes, let's judge him on 2 tests
Hoggard - has a bright future
Ormond - see Bicknell

I don't see what any of that list proves.

 

[Anon2]

Does Hutchison get into the Yorkshire team much?

 

[marc71178]

I don't see what any of that list proves.

That list shows that going by the statistics is no guide as to how good a player does in Test Matches - which is why you think Fulton should have a chance.

All those were CAREER averages up to the start of last season. As I said, just 1 of the batsmen and 2 of the bowlers have had good Test careers, which surely shows that you can't say a player is going to be a Test player based on his First Class average.

[Edited on 3/27/02 by marc71178]

 

[Neil Pickup]

The players that have been given test chances for more than a few games have succeeded!!

The list gives more credence to my argument than it does to yours!

 

[marc71178]

Even more bull there.

You yourself said Hick hadn't succeeded, now you say he has - make your mind up! Of course it's going to help your argument if you are going to change your argument!


The fact that the majority haven't had many chances at Test cricket proves that the Selectors don't pay as much attention to the stats as you said they should do in selecting Fulton.

 

[Neil Pickup]

I never said that Hick had succeeded, I said that in his case there were clear extenuating circumstances - the fact that he was unable to play international cricket for 5 years after he left Zimbabwe for England, hence depriving him of international games in his formative years.

You claimed that first class averages don't make good test players. There is no proof of this as the players haven't been given test chances.

It is this prevailing attitude that I am arguing against as it is unfair.

 

[Anon2]

If he had stayed in Zimbabwe he would have stayed in their international team.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Yep, and would probably have ended up as a better player. Like Andy Flower.

He didn't make his England début until he was 25, when he could have made it far earlier apart from the acclimatisation period. After all, he was Wisden Cricketer of the Year in 1987 and would probably have made a better player had he been eligible to play Tests then.

 

[marc71178]

Of ourse, I realise where I was wrong - if he'd been able to make his debut when he was 20, he'd have been far better equipped to counter the hostile bowling of Messrs. Walsh and Ambrose wouldn't he?