South Africa and Test openers

[Prince EWS]

I think Rudolph was batting at the top of the order at the very start of his First-Class career. Camps was the one who first showed me it (I'd always presumed he was a middle-order batsman in every respect) so he'd probably be best to re-examine the issue TBH.

Rudolph started his first class career as a bowling allrounder, batting between 7 and 9.

Case in point.

By the time he got selected for Northerns' first choice team, he was a batting allrounder and batted around 5, before eventually being thrust up to open as the team was in a similar situation to South Africa now with little specialist candidates. He did well there, though, and was picking South Africa to bat at #3 based almost exclusively on what he had done opening the batting. He never opened for Yorkshire, though, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't opened in Franchise cricket since it started. Despite doing it quite a bit in his FC career, I don't think it's his preference as he never does it if they are other options.

 

[Perm]

Morne Van Wyk

2004-05 - 731 runs @ 43.00
2005-06 - 768 runs @ 56.14
2006-07 - 671 runs @ 55.91
2007-08 - 255 runs @ 18.21

A real shame this season worked out how it has. Does he open at FC level much? I hear about him in relation to openers a bit but whenever I check a scorecard, he tends to be in the middle order, and keeping. I guess it's a byproduct of what we've already discovered though that he is brought up as South Africa have few performing domestic openers. He opened for South Africa A against the West Indies so he's in the selectors thoughts for that role (scored 80 odd too) but he's been dire this season as a whole.

If he hadn't been so diabolically poor this year, and generally just looking average at international level, then I'd have been pushing for his inclusion. AFAIK he opens for OD cricket and is a middle-order batsmen in the longer format of the game.

 

[Perm]

TBH I'm surprised that we haven't seen JP Duminy being foced up the order. Extremely talented batsmen, and shouldn't be too far away from the national side. South Africa have some real selection issues though, with only a few people regularly contributing and the rest keeping their place in the side on the basis of others perfomances.

 

[Goughy]

Nah, I think I can't remember what my Rudolph was way back then, but I don't think that was quite it. Seeing as Rudolph was a spinner at the very start of his first-class career.

Rudolph started his first class career as a bowling allrounder, batting between 7 and 9.

Case in point.

Rudolph was a very talented leg-spinner, but he was always a quality batsman as well.

His batting continued to progress as his bowling declined. However, he was never picked purely as a spinner, nor as a bowling allrounder at senior level.

The scorecard above is misleading as he will have slotted in low down the order as a young kid breaking in.

Rudolph 'lost' his bowling before he left school. At 17 he was a potential batting/leg-spin all-rounder of great ability and by 18 and the time he left school the bowling was a secondary skill.

Take this U19 Test in Pakistan that Rudolph played in early 99. SA used 7 bowlers but he was not one of them.

By the time he was getting introduced to FC cricket his leg spin was only a marginal factor in his game.

Now I dont mean to speak with undue authority on the subject, but I have had long discussions on the topic of Rudolph as his High School 1st XI coach is one of my closest friends in coaching.

 

[Prince EWS]

Rudolph was a very talented leg-spinner, but he was always a quality batsman as well.

His batting continued to progress as his bowling declined. However, he was never picked purely as a spinner, nor as a bowling allrounder at senior level.

The scorecard above is misleading as he will have slotted in low down the order as a young kid breaking in.

Rudolph 'lost' his bowling before he left school. At 17 he was a potential batting/leg-spin all-rounder of great ability and by 18 and the time he left school the bowling was a secondary skill.

Take this U19 Test in Pakistan that Rudolph played in early 99. SA used 7 bowlers but he was not one of them.

By the time he was getting introduced to FC cricket his leg spin was only a marginal factor in his game.

Now I dont mean to speak with undue authority on the subject, but I have had long discussions on the topic of Rudolph as his High School 1st XI coach is one of my closest friends in coaching.

He bowled extensively in all of matches for Northerns B and batted way down the list - they were first class matches and predate the game you're referring to - they were the start of his FC career. Obviously he was a talented batsman as well but I wouldn't call him a specialist opener, which was my point.

Rudolph's performances for Northerns B (his first few games in FC cricket, played in 1998):
56 and 55 at #7; 8-30-1 and 10-20-2
12* and 0 at #9; 6-26-0 and DNB
32 and 0 at #10 and #6; 16-46-3 and 19-47-3
2 and 4 at #6 and #7; 35-98-5 and DNB (only 4 overs in the innings, though)
35 and DNB at #8; DNB and 31-76-2
105 and 20 at #7; 27-87-5 and 12-73-2
17 and 6 at #4; 3-0-18-0 and 4-23-1

Up and down the order like a yoyo, without opening once, and being used as a frontline spinner a lot of the time (with success, too).

He got selected for Northerns for the first time in 1999 which is more in the timeframe you're referring to, at which point he batted up the order and bowled about 4th or 5th change as a partnership breaker. He sonn got moved up to open and did quite well there, but it doesn't make him a specialist opener, just someone capable of opening.

 

[Craig]

I thought South Africa had a policy of picking players at random.

Short of going for McKenzie or Dippenaar or even putting ABdeV as openers, then I guess Andy Puttick is the next cab off the rank.

 

[chaminda_00]

How come Jean Symes hasn't played much franshise cricket?

 

[pup11]

I don't like basically anybody picking up his gears and trying his hand at opening the batting in test cricket, lot of expertise and skill is required for one to be a good opening batsman and middle-order batsman would always look out of place while facing the new ball.
IMO a genuine opener should only open in test cricket as he lends a lot of solidity to the batting order, we see a lot of teams pushing through a middle-order batsman to open the innings which shouldn't be the case.

 

[wpdavid]

Picking up on an earlier comment, how does the franchise system differ what whatever preceded it?

 

[Craig]

Money?

 

[chaminda_00]

Picking up on an earlier comment, how does the franchise system differ what whatever preceded it?

With only six teams in theory it is harder to get a game at the highest level and should in theory improve the standard of the competition. But with the impact of Kolpax it doesn't seem to have happened at the level they would have liked. But considering someone like Symes hasn't played a great deal of franchise cricket and a lot of younger Kolpax players move as they can't get regular game time in the first XI. It does seem to be working to a small extent.

 

[wpdavid]

With only six teams in theory it is harder to get a game at the highest level and should in theory improve the standard of the competition. But with the impact of Kolpax it doesn't seem to have happened at the level they would have liked. But considering someone like Symes hasn't played a great deal of franchise cricket and a lot of younger Kolpax players move as they can't get regular game time in the first XI. It does seem to be working to a small extent.

How many teams were there before the franchises were introduced then?

 

[chaminda_00]

How many teams were there before the franchises were introduced then?

11 i think.

 

[wpdavid]

11 i think.

At the highest level? That's more than I expected, but I really didn't know either way.

Anyway, McKenzie's just missed a big opportunity to cash in, although you couldn't say that opening the batting had much to do with it.

 

[Goughy]

11 i think.

Correct

At the highest level? That's more than I expected, but I really didn't know either way.

In the 2004-2005 Season the Franchise system was introduced. That cut the number of teams at the top level from 11 to 6.

The 2004-2005 Teams were

Eagles
Dolphins
Western Province Boland (now I believe called Cape Cobras)
Titans
Lions
Warriors

The 2003-2004 the teams were

KwaZulu-Natal
Griqualand West
Free State
Boland
Easterns
Eastern Province
Western Province
Border
North West
Northerns
Gauteng

As for Symes, I cant say for sure what the reason is for his lack of Franchise games. Maybe it is due to the fact that Lions have established players and development players (a player can be both like Ontong) that leave little room for him especially as there are a number of youngish players competing for the last couple of batting slots (Cook, Snijman, Coetsee, etc)

Maybe its as simple as he is still at Varsity and isnt available for all Franchise games and therefore plays Gauteng cricket.

Maybe they dont think he is ready.

I honestly dont know. Never seen him play either, so apart from his record and a few second hand comments I dont know much about him.

 

[Craig]

Correct



In the 2004-2005 Season the Franchise system was introduced. That cut the number of teams at the top level from 11 to 6.

The 2004-2005 Teams were

Eagles
Dolphins
Western Province Boland (now I believe called Cape Cobras)
Titans
Lions
Warriors

The 2003-2004 the teams were

KwaZulu-Natal
Griqualand West
Free State
Boland
Easterns
Eastern Province
Western Province
Border
North West
Northerns
Gauteng

As for Symes, I cant say for sure what the reason is for his lack of Franchise games. Maybe it is due to the fact that Lions have established players and development players (a player can be both like Ontong) that leave little room for him especially as there are a number of youngish players competing for the last couple of batting slots (Cook, Snijman, Coetsee, etc)

Maybe its as simple as he is still at Varsity and isnt available for all Franchise games and therefore plays Gauteng cricket.

Maybe they dont think he is ready.

I honestly dont know. Never seen him play either, so apart from his record and a few second hand comments I dont know much about him.

Isn't that what happened with Graeme Smith, his chances weren't the highest playing for Gauteng and then went to Cape Town?

 

[Goughy]

Isn't that what happened with Graeme Smith, his chances weren't the highest playing for Gauteng and then went to Cape Town?

That would make sense as he was a star at KES (King Edward School) in Jo'burg.

 

[Richard]

Nah, I think I can't remember what my Rudolph was way back then, but I don't think that was quite it. Seeing as Rudolph was a spinner at the very start of his first-class career.

EDIT: I think my point was actually that he has scored heavily opening the batting at domestic level, emphasizing his qualifications as an opener.

Rudolph started his first class career as a bowling allrounder, batting between 7 and 9.

Case in point.

By the time he got selected for Northerns' first choice team, he was a batting allrounder and batted around 5, before eventually being thrust up to open as the team was in a similar situation to South Africa now with little specialist candidates. He did well there, though, and was picking South Africa to bat at #3 based almost exclusively on what he had done opening the batting. He never opened for Yorkshire, though, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't opened in Franchise cricket since it started. Despite doing it quite a bit in his FC career, I don't think it's his preference as he never does it if they are other options.

Rudolph was a very talented leg-spinner, but he was always a quality batsman as well.

His batting continued to progress as his bowling declined. However, he was never picked purely as a spinner, nor as a bowling allrounder at senior level.

The scorecard above is misleading as he will have slotted in low down the order as a young kid breaking in.

Rudolph 'lost' his bowling before he left school. At 17 he was a potential batting/leg-spin all-rounder of great ability and by 18 and the time he left school the bowling was a secondary skill.

Take this U19 Test in Pakistan that Rudolph played in early 99. SA used 7 bowlers but he was not one of them.

By the time he was getting introduced to FC cricket his leg spin was only a marginal factor in his game.

Now I dont mean to speak with undue authority on the subject, but I have had long discussions on the topic of Rudolph as his High School 1st XI coach is one of my closest friends in coaching.

Right, think I understand the Rudolph situation a bit better now. Possibly nothing more than a similar case to Andrew Hall.

Anyone know the exact situation regarding him and opening (in the longer game)?

 

[TT Boy]

Isn't that what happened with Graeme Smith, his chances weren't the highest playing for Gauteng and then went to Cape Town?

Smith’s move to the Cape was more to do with a lifestyle change than cricket. He would have gone very far with Gauteng due to being a child prodigy at KES and having the admiration of all the right people, notably CSA honcho Gerald Majola but he wanted to grow up and get away from his parents and be his own man like his brother.

And Western Province/Cape Cobras has enticed quite a few cricketers over the past few years to abandon their indigenous provinces in favour of the more relaxing and soothing surroundings that the Western Cape induces, Smith was one of them.

 

[TT Boy]

Right, think I understand the Rudolph situation a bit better now. Possibly nothing more than a similar case to Andrew Hall.

Anyone know the exact situation regarding him and opening (in the longer game)?

Northerns had an opener problem, they wanted Rudolph to play because of his bowling, they put two and two together and got him opening. Rudolph then became established within the side due to his batting and thus dictated terms of where he ideally wanted to bat for Northerns and it wasn't opening. Like Human he fixed a problem and since doing that people have naturally assumed he was always an opener, when in reality both men like and always wanted to bat no higher than three. They are essentially as natural to opening as Gibbs, only difference being Gibbs excelled and scored 5,000 test runs and averaged closer to 50 than 40 (not bad for a guy who apparently didn't have the 'technique' to open...) doing a job he started fairly late on in his cricketing career.