Could Graeme Smith break all captaincy records?

[Perm]

Why?

 

[Richard]

Because I think Smith can score against good bowlers on seam-friendly surfaces; I don't think Hayden can or has ever been able to.

 

[Perm]

Because I think Smith can score against good bowlers on seam-friendly surfaces

Based on what?

 

[Richard]

His technical failings being possible to work around (unlike Hayden's) and his concentration powers being possible to reach the exceptional (dare I say, Bradmanesque).

Of late, of course, he's been going totally wrong. I sometimes wonder if his ODI adjustments have been counter-productive to his Test batting - he's now playing at many balls outside off that he need not do (and which was the biggest secret of his initial phenominal success), and he's even being bowled from time to time, which he never used to be.

If it was being lbw every innings we could say he's been worked-out. But he hasn't been.

 

[NUFAN]

How's he going to break all captaincy records?

If he gets the record for the captain with the best winning percentage, he's not going to break the record for the captain with the best losing percentage..

Smith isn't anything special as a captain, but I do enjoy listening to him.

 

[Richard]

Obviously, I meant break all realistically-could-be-broken captaincy records.

@ the BTW.

 

[Matt79]

Made me think of Graeme Smith releasing a rap album. I'll have to hose out my strides now.

 

[Goughy]

If it was being lbw every innings we could say he's been worked-out. But he hasn't been.

Its impossible to be dismissed in the same fashion every way, even if there is one particular hole in a technique.

Smith certainly has been worked out with his head getting outside the line of the ball that swings in.

I class Hoggard as the original exploiter of this technical issue.

Before Enlgand toured in 2004, Smith averaged 55 and was LBW 17% of the time.

Since then (roughly half his career) his average has dropped 10 runs to 45 and he has been dismissed LBW 28% of the time. That is a big number and a large drop off in production.

The fact that there is a) an obvious technical flaw b) A substantial increase in a method of dismissal related to the techincal flaw and c) A decline in effectiveness means that there is a clear working out of Smith.

It doesnt mean he cant score runs or be dismissed in another fashion, just that his producion will be reduced as teams can focus on playing %age cricket.

 

[Richard]

I've not watched every Smith innings, and while it's obvious he won't get out the same way every single time, I've heard of and seen no pattern (certainly there was none in evidence in the Australia Tests in 2005\06) with constant inswinger-lbw dismissals. Indeed, Taylor in the recent Test was the first time I'd seen him dismissed in that way for a fair while.

The first time Smith had a pattern of being lbw to inswingers was earlier even than 2004\05 - Bicknell and Kirtley both got him out in 2003 (Kirtley to one he'd inside-edged mind) with such deliveries. Hoggard then did it more obviously than anyone in the next series (thereby completely throwing-out all the stupid suggestions which I always said were stupid that bowling outside off was the best way to go). Since then, however, I can't say there's been a large amount of the dismissals - certainly not enough to suggest it's a failing widely worked on. Smith simply hasn't played well, and has found a variety of ways to get out, which he'd avoided in the early part of his career.

 

[Perm]

Richard - It just seems very 'two-faced' that you can criticise loads of other batsman for first-chance averages, minnow bashing, being a FTB, yet you don't criticise Smith at all.

 

[social]

I've not watched every Smith innings, and while it's obvious he won't get out the same way every single time, I've heard of and seen no pattern (certainly there was none in evidence in the Australia Tests in 2005\06) with constant inswinger-lbw dismissals. Indeed, Taylor in the recent Test was the first time I'd seen him dismissed in that way for a fair while.

The first time Smith had a pattern of being lbw to inswingers was earlier even than 2004\05 - Bicknell and Kirtley both got him out in 2003 (Kirtley to one he'd inside-edged mind) with such deliveries. Hoggard then did it more obviously than anyone in the next series (thereby completely throwing-out all the stupid suggestions which I always said were stupid that bowling outside off was the best way to go). Since then, however, I can't say there's been a large amount of the dismissals - certainly not enough to suggest it's a failing widely worked on. Smith simply hasn't played well, and has found a variety of ways to get out, which he'd avoided in the early part of his career.

Smith has clearly been worked out - every bowler in test cricket knows exactly where to bowl to him and the fact that he has had such a serious decline is evidence of that.

Simply because he doesnt get dismissed lbw every innings is irrelevant - he has so many doubts going through his mind because of that weakness that his dismissal is often brought about in a different way.

BTW, in his last 20 tests going back more than 2.5 years, he averages 30 - if that's not being worked out, I dont know what is

 

[Richard]

Richard - It just seems very 'two-faced' that you can criticise loads of other batsman for first-chance averages, minnow bashing, being a FTB, yet you don't criticise Smith at all.

But why would that make any sense?

What would be the point in talking down others and not talking down Smith for the same things? Why would I do that?

 

[Richard]

Smith has clearly been worked out - every bowler in test cricket knows exactly where to bowl to him and the fact that he has had such a serious decline is evidence of that.

Simply because he doesnt get dismissed lbw every innings is irrelevant - he has so many doubts going through his mind because of that weakness that his dismissal is often brought about in a different way.

BTW, in his last 20 tests going back more than 2.5 years, he averages 30 - if that's not being worked out, I dont know what is

It's playing poorly. For a batsman to be worked-out, there has to be at least some constant nature about dismissals. Obviously, as I've already said, no-one is going to be dismissed the same way in every innings, but there has to be a recurring theme. There isn't. You can manufacture silly little things like "he has doubt because he was dismissed lbw to an inswinger once 2-and-a-half years ago" but it really holds no water. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest such a thing.

Smith simply hasn't batted very well in recent times. Not because the bowlers were too good for him - simply because he's kept managing to find ways to get out.

 

[TT Boy]

His technical failings being possible to work around (unlike Hayden's) and his concentration powers being possible to reach the exceptional (dare I say, Bradmanesque).

Major difference... Hayden has and was willing to change his game after the Ashes 05 (i.e. after failure), Smith since circa 2004 has never bothered to address any technical faults in his game and like an alcoholic his oblivious to any problems his game has. He has attempted to construct an off-side game which is slightly encouraging but because of the way his still bats towards the onside that’s never going to be terribly constructive, especially when ones got three slips and gully.

If champions such as Tiger Woods can change their game twice already, mere men such as Smith really shouldn’t feel the anxiety to at least consider changing some part of his game. And the fact of the matter is that he needs to because if he doesn’t he won’t have a test career for much longer. It’s one thing scoring runs and looking awful but when you stopped scoring runs and still look awful then there really is a problem.

 

[Richard]

Yep, and Smith certainly needs to do something. However, I'm not convinced it's quite what some seem to think. As I've said several times in this thread, the lbw problems haven't actually been on view of late - possibly because he's not faced bowlers good enough to bowl inswingers, possibly simply because he's found other ways to get out before the lbw can come into the equation.

For mine, his biggest problems of late have been the fact that he's too often playing at deliveries outside off that he never used to. He's trying to turn a weakness into a strength, when for mine what he needed to do was simply work on eliminating a totally separate weakness. In attempting to construct an off-side game he has simply found many ways to get out that used to be virtually impossible to dismiss him with.

 

[Perm]

But why would that make any sense?

What would be the point in talking down others and not talking down Smith for the same things? Why would I do that?

Because it would show consistency with your judgements. As it is, it appears as though you quite like Smith, therefore you don't go on about his FCA or him being a FTB like you do with other batsmen who have had similar careers to him (Hayden being one).

 

[Richard]

But I don't "like" or "dislike" batsmen. That'd be a downright stupid thing to do. I either rate them, or I don't.

I do feel, and always have, that Smith has the potential to be better than Hayden. But there's no denying their weaknesses in their careers to date have been similar.

 

[BoyBrumby]

What did Warwick Armstrong weigh when he captained Oz? 22 stone? Smith in with a more than sporting chance of that record IMHO.

 

[vic_orthdox]

What did Warwick Armstrong weigh when he captained Oz? 22 stone? Smith in with a more than sporting chance of that record IMHO.

I remember seeing Smith edge a lot of balls out wide against Australia, but it was the lead up to the dismissal that was more telling. It actually reminded me a lot of how Australia used to get Trescothick out, keeping it in really tight and making him hit straight or leaving it, and then nicking a wide one. Both players rather hitting the ball square if possible, and by making them hit in between mid off and mid on, they get starved of scoring opportunities. Therefore, when he sees one a bit wider, he's more inclined to chase it even if it isn't a half volley or he's not in position.

It's not the actual mode of dismissal that is occurring because of the technical fault, but the lead up to the dismissal and the restriction of scoring zones that contributes hugely.

 

[Richard]

Yes, and (as Australia showed with Trescothick) a player who will fall to that sort of thing will never get too far against half-decent bowling (and catching).

The thing about Smith is, near to the start of his Test career he simply did not play at balls outside off, unless they were impossibly easy drive balls - Half-Volleys very full which he could squeeze through extra-cover or Half-Volleys outside off which he could "drag" through mid-off. He just waited for the bowlers to come to him - and even though the time it took varied hugely, it always happened in the end. That was what made him look a bit special in his early Tests. Then came the inswinger-lbws.

as usual at Brumby of course.