Ponting is better than Lara

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by social

Lot's of evidence to suggest that Ponting is the second best batsman in history

BIG WEAKNESS - record in India however the series in Oz in '03 was played on India-like wickets and he slaughtered them

Otherwise, hammers everyone, virtually every time, virtually everywhere with an unorthodox technique

Indisputably a great player but rank him where you will

"India-like" is not India. Besides that weakness, he doesn't have any. If he slaughters India in his next away Test series, there is certainly a case for him being a top three all time batsman (I'd put Bradman and Hobbs ahead).

But if you asked me to take someone at his absolute best, I'd take Lara over him.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by social

Lot's of evidence to suggest that Ponting is the second best batsman in history

No, there isn't.

[NUFAN]

Originally Posted by Richard

No, there isn't.

How many players can you suggest would have an average higher then 59.42 after 112 Test Matches?

Only Bradman is certain.. so there is a case..

[Speersy]

Lara has the most runs in test cricket be any batsmen, the most runs in an innings.

He has 5 more double hundreds than Ponting, 2 triple centuries (Ponting has none).

So I think that Lara was the better batsmen in that he scored really big, Ponting does have a better average but he has been N.O. 26 times where as Lara has only done it 6 times.

Ponting has only 19 more test matches to go to equal Lara's 131, so its safe to say that when their total test matches played are equal Lara will still hold most of those records.

[Speersy]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

How many players can you suggest would have an average higher then 59.42 after 112 Test Matches?

Only Bradman is certain.. so there is a case..

Kumar Sangakkara

Only 71 tests with an average of 56.37

[JBH001]

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

In regards to the 'challenging surfaces' point....While it's true that many surfaces Ponting have played on have been bating friendly...Can you say the opposite about Lara? Windies pitches for much of Lara's career were as batting friendly as the Australian pitches Ponting has played on.

I'm sure there are many instances in which Lara has scored runs on challenging tracks, just as there are many instances in which Ponting has scored runs on challenging tracks.

Yep, I know. The 'challenging surfaces' point was more a recognition of the whole pre-2001 and post-2001 falt track debate (and Ponting to my recent recollection made a fine hundred on a difficult surface in SA not too long ago). You have raised some interesting points, but I dont think a debate of this nature can be satisfied statistically (as neither are by any means FTB's) but on their innate nature and class as batsmen.

Though an element of subjectivity may be implied in this, I dont think it just comes down to a preference of style, of one over the other. But simply, on observing a batsman and knowing "mmm, this guy is good" which is outside stats (and in the case of a new batsman which stats will have to substantiate). It is this quality I think that Lara has over Ponting (however many runs he scores and where he will score them in) to a discernible degree. I hope that made sense, as I have just woken up and am coffee deprived.

[Goughy]

Interesting that Lara is being given bonus credit for his 2 big scores. When they were in possibly 2 of the most pointless Tests ever played, on possibly the easiest batting ground in recent memory.

Ive never seen Lara the way others have. Maybe Im wrong, thats what opinions are all about. However, I clearly take Ponting in this discussion.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by NUFAN

How many players can you suggest would have an average higher then 59.42 after 112 Test Matches?

Only Bradman is certain.. so there is a case..

I care little for an overall career average.

[aussie]

I am a huge Ponting fan & Lara is one of my favourite batsmen ever. So there is no biasness towards anyone as i state my opinion towards the view of the thread staters here..

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

There, I said it.

A major point is that many people claim Lara scored his runs against better bowling than Ponting. They say that he dominated in an era where Waqar, Wasim, Donald, McGrath, Ambrose and Walsh were bowling. Fair enough. He did indeed dominate in such an era. I've always felt that was an incredibly general statement though, and thought I'd investigate it further.

Yes he has scored runs againts better bowling attacks than Ponting thats a plain fact. I'm not sure though if the idea that he dominated the likes of Waqar, Wasim, Donald, Mcgrath was ever said though given that he was so inconsistent. I know for a fact he never scored big runs againts Pakistan or South (home or away) in the 90's when Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Pollock where at their peaks.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

Ponting has scored centuries against attacks containing Wasim Akram:.

Saw this series & i can tell you even though he was unlucky with decisions & bad fielding he was in decline as a test bowler & wasn't the great Akram anymore. Off my head i don't think Akram took alot of wickets at all during that series.

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/63856.html

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

and Waqar Younis:

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/64001.html

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/64003.html

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/63856.html

By 2002 Waqar was definately gone, added to the fact the conditions where neutral the other bowlers where very either sub-standard (razzaq, sami) or also in decline (Saqlain) the only serious bowling Ponting & the other Australian batsmen had in that series was from Akhtar. Plus the last link was a Akram game from the 99 series.

So overall bringing up these examples won't help Punter too much since facing Wasim & Waqar below there peaks doesn't compare to the challenge Lara had while facing them.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

Centuries by Lara against attacks containing both, or either of these bowlers? 0. His average comes to 30 in 7 Tests. Not terrible, but by absolutely on means 'dominant'. If we apply the same criteria to Ponting, we are left with an average of 73.11 from the same number of Tests as Lara.

No doubt Lara didn't do much againts PAK & SA when they had there stalwart bowlers. But as i just Ponting managed to score runs againts them when they where way past their best.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

Let's move on to Donald. Once again, Lara failed to ever score a Test century against an attack containing Donald. Ponting, however, did achieve such a feat (in his first Test against Donald mind you), and was the only Australian century maker in the relatively low scoring Test:

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/63778.html

Ponting played 4 Tests against attacks containing Donald for an average of 50.40. He was not once dismissed by Donald. Lara on the other hand, played 11 Tests against attacks containing Donald and failed to score a single century. He was dismissed 6 times by Donald and averaged 35 against said attacks. Once again, not terribly poor by any means, however not as dominant as some make out. Thus far, you'd have to say Ponting has the wood over Lara when it comes to scoring against 'quality' opposition.

Stats don't prove everything hear in Lara's career record vs South African opponent when Donald/Pollock where bowling at their peaks as i found out when i did a research in the past when comparing Lara's record vs Tendulkar's.

In those 11 test vs Donald never was it a case where Lara was at his best as i will describe to you now. In 92 it was just a one of test where neither had established themselves as world-beaters so i'll start for the 98/99 series. In that 98/99 series in SA Lara was clearly going throught a lean patch during the late 90's where other than 2 big series vs England (who had poor bowling attacks) & big scores here or there it wasn't Lara at his best he was very inconsistent compared to Tendulkar up until that fabolous series vs Australia in 99. Then in 2001 when SA went to the caribbean his problem was that he was gradually coming back from a break from the International game & wasn't back to his fluent best, while Donald was clearly past his best.

Yea you may be tempeted to say one has to make the most of his oppurtunities has Ponting did by averaging well in his 4 test vs SA but the fact that Lara wasn't at his best to tackle SA while Donald/Pollock partnership was at there best is an important point, also i'm sure if one was to make a resarch into how many times Lara averaged high (40 plus my criteria) vs top-class bowling attacks in their respective careers in fairly sure Lara would be ahead.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

Now for obvious reasons, Ponting never faced McGrath in Test cricket. Which is a shame because Ponting without a doubt had the wood over McGrath in State cricket. In this match, very early on in Ponting's career, Ponting scored 125 & 69 against the attack featuring McGrath.

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Archive/Sc.../56/56891.html

In this match he scored 58 & 134 against an attack featuring McGrath:

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Archive/Sc.../60/60034.html

In being fair, Ponting didn't have such a magnificent outing on this occasion and scored 20 and 43, being dismissed by McGrath in the second innings.

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Archive/Sc.../61/61214.html

And in the final match in which Ponting faced McGrath, the honours go to Ponting once again. Ponting scored 126 and 154 in this match.

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Archive/Sc.../73/73209.html

That's an average of 91.13 against attacks containing McGrath for Ponting...and it's not like these attacks are terrible either...Look at some of the names who were with McGrath...Lee, MacGill, Clark, Matthews...Not cannon fodder, and I think it's fair to say that Ponting had the wood over McGrath (when you consider all those runs at that average for a mere 1 dismissal)...whereas Lara didn't. I'm aware that comparing State cricket to the Australian attack is kinda silly...but as I said...these weren't exactly No-Frills attacks surrounding McGrath. And I think it's a fair indicator of how Ponting plays McGrath.

Let's do the same for Lara when it comes to Walsh and Ambrose. Ponting played 9 Tests against attacks containing either/or for an average of 40. Not magnificent, but respectable, and there is indeed a century amongst it, so there is further evidence of performing against quality opposition. Walsh dismissed him 4 times in these 9 Tests, so it's probably fair to say he troubled Ponting. However, Lara seemed to struggle against attacks containing Ambrose as evidenced by him failing to reach triple figures once against Leeward Islands in 5 matches with Ambrose in them only averaging 26.3. Lara however did very well against attacks containing Walsh with Jamaica scoring runs at an average of 54 in 7 matches. I'd call this one even.

I understand what you are trying to prove i don't think its needed since. I personally never had agreed with the argument that just because Australian batsmen have not faced their own bowlers in this era are not better than batsmen from around the world because they have (a strong point made by some when comparing Ponting & Dravid), especially when those opposition batsmen have failed againts Australia.

People won't dare to use that argument for former legends and say Greg Chappell was better than Viv Richards because he faced the fearsome quartet while Viv didn't. Its an extremely flawed argument that doesn't make sense at all.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

When it comes to Murali, Lara without a doubt handles him incredibly well and averages 75 against Sri Lanka containing Murali. He is a wonderful player of spin and has Ponting covered against this bowler. That said, Ponting's average against attacks containing Murali is 58, which certainly doesn't put him to shame. Interesting thing is though, that Lara has been dismissed by Murali 4 times in the 6 Tests they've played against each other, while Ponting has only been dismissed by the great spinner 3 times in 10 Tests...So something to ponder there.

Not for me, its fairly obvious for from what i've seen that the way Lara has played Murali is miles above anyone has in the modern game. I'm fairly sure even though Murali has dismissed Lara 4 times in 6 test Lara still has some massive scores behind that. Ponting along with most Australian batsmen since 99 (the series where Ponting was the only batsmen to play Murali well) have played Murali very well but none have dominated him.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

So all in all, I think this certainly proves that the idea that Ponting hasn't done well against quality bowlers (in comparison to other 'modern greats') is entirely a myth.

Hmm, well lets just stay in comparison with Lara don't worry about the other top-batsmen just yet.

Note: Doing well againts top-quality attacks will be averaging 40+ againts them.

Ponting vs top-quality attacks:

Looking at his series by series breakdown i would only consider his performance in the 97/98 home series vs SA, Ashes series (even though it slightly goes againts the criteria), vs SRI in 99 & vs SA home & away in the 2005/06 season.

Lara vs top-quality attacks:

Looking at Lara's series by series breakdown i'll say AUS 92/93, 95, 99, 2003, 2005, PAK 93, SA 2001, 2003/04, SRI 2001, ENG 2000 where attacks of quality.

Did not include the 2004 home series vs ENG where he averaged 40+ but he did not dominate the English attack really in that series that 400 really covers up the struggles he had alot.

So overall Lara beats Ponting againts quality attacks by a fair away so its not a myth.

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

Let's not forget that many of these innings were when Ponting wasn't even half the player he is today...Imagine what he would be capable of if his current skills were on show back then.

Players go through transitions Ponting was on a certain level back then he has evolved since then. So its useless to say now what he could have done if he was then if he was batting like he is now. Its just how it is..

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

These statistics also indicate that Ponting has performed against the 'greats' to a higher level than Lara has (on the whole)....yet many state the opposite...It doesn't appear to be true here.

Well as i showed you thats not really the case..

[Fiery]

Ponting easily > now imo

[Fiery]

Originally Posted by Richard

I care little for an overall career average.

If you are going to explain that then please make it short

[Richard]

Have provided many an explanation TBH, and CBA again, I'm very tired as it's now Boxing Day and I must soon get to bed so as I can get up tomorrow and start re boxing-up my presents.

[Fiery]

Originally Posted by Richard

Have provided many an explanation TBH, and CBA again, I'm very tired as it's now Boxing Day and I must soon get to bed so as I can get up tomorrow and start re boxing-up my presents.

ok, ta

[roseboy64]

Originally Posted by Fiery

If you are going to explain that then please make it short

Something about first chance averages. Also think something to do with players playing on way past their best or played Tests before they were ready.

[ShinySanjeev]

Here's why.... **************