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Your top ten TEST bowlers of ALL-TIME

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
:laugh: Is this a pre school class. Don't get so emotional over such petty issues .It is fun ,isn't it ?If each and every one has the same opinion ,whats the point of these discussions.

Apart from his Imran crush BS is a nice bloke .:unsure:
BS could be a nice bloke and I have never said otherwise. I dont want him to change his opinion on Imran beihg a better bowler than Akram.

But his opinions are heavily biased and ignorant. He makes some really stupid claims against some great players (Sobers, Lillee, Botham and now Akram) claims that are very demeaning and when confronted he claims to change his opinion on them and then again makes the same stupid remark. So basically he continues to make those demeaning remarks about those cricketers and at the same time he will say that oh he is at no. 4 in my list and blah blah blah.

This has been going on for quite some time now and something that annoys me great deal. Obviously it is a weakness on my part that I can not stop myself from reading and replying to his posts. Now I have had enough of his opinion and also I dont want to get into this argument again and again and spoil the threads for others. So the best option for me is to use the Ignore feature and I did just that and I dont think anyone should have any problem with that.
 

roseboy64

Cricket Web Content Updater
BS could be a nice bloke and I have never said otherwise. I dont want him to change his opinion on Imran beihg a better bowler than Akram.

But his opinions are heavily biased and ignorant. He makes some really stupid claims against some great players (Sobers, Lillee, Botham and now Akram) claims that are very demeaning and when confronted he claims to change his opinion on them and then again makes the same stupid remark. So basically he continues to make those demeaning remarks about those cricketers and at the same time he will say that oh he is at no. 4 in my list and blah blah blah.

This has been going on for quite some time now and something that annoys me great deal. Obviously it is a weakness on my part that I can not stop myself from reading and replying to his posts. Now I have had enough of his opinion and also I dont want to get into this argument again and again and spoil the threads for others. So the best option for me is to use the Ignore feature and I did just that and I dont think anyone should have any problem with that.
Fair point TBH.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Interesting that batting is percieved to be alot easier these days when arguably 6 of the best 12 or so bowlers ever have played alot of their cricket over the past 10-15 years -
Ambrose
Donald
Warne
Murali
McGrath
Wasim

Plus the likes of Bishop, Walsh, Waqar who would probably make a top 25.
Neither Donald nor Wasim contributed to that era, though, that's the thing.

And more than anything the problem with this era has been not lack of great bowlers but severe lack of mere good bowlers.
 

river end

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
no spinner? :-O :-O
social wrote:
spinners simply dont have the ability to blast you out when all else fails


Unfortunately, that's why I find it impossible to put spinners in the very top bracket when talking 'greatest'.
If a batsman really wants to he can keep a spinner out but with a great fast bowler its a different kettle of fish (e.g. Waqar, Marshall).
Spinners rely more on batsman mistakes, whereas a great fast bowler is far more likely to be dismissed through brilliant bowling or "blasting" him out.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Yeah but spinners like Warne and Murali can 'spin' batsmen out with unbelievable deliveries.

Did Gatting make a mistake in 1993? I think not.
 

river end

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Neither Donald nor Wasim contributed to that era, though, that's the thing.

And more than anything the problem with this era has been not lack of great bowlers but severe lack of mere good bowlers.
In otherwords, I would say, a lack of decent test bowling attacks. It's one thing to have 1 great bowler - it's another to have a exceptional attack.
 

river end

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Yeah but spinners like Warne and Murali can 'spin' batsmen out with unbelievable deliveries.

Did Gatting make a mistake in 1993? I think not.
Gotta disagree there. Gatting was fat and lazy - if you watch it, it was a lazy forward defensive prod - barely moved his front leg. A decent batsman would have stretched his leg and easily smothered it.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
McGrath was a excellent bowler, but clearly....10 pts - MD Marshall

Look, as good as McGrath was, he was clearly a more "negative" bowler. A bowler who, yes, bowled to get people out but far more through negative means (containment policy). To be the considered the greatest in my view, if you have 2 bowlers with similar statistical records (and actually Marshall still has a better overall record) the nod clearly goes to the out-and-out attacking bowler, the one with the greater arsenal, the charisma, the aura etc...the one that has the "aesthetics", the one that makes cricket beautiful to watch.

The only "argument" you could put against Marshall is that he was bowling in a strong bowling attack. But to counter that, all the test sides were highly competitive (in batting and bowling, especially compared to today) which means the pressure was more evenly distributed between all players involved in a match.
Whereas, today, and especially for McGrath in the second half of his career - the batsmen were almost always under abnormally enormous pressure against Australia because their bowling attacks were so poor (constantly chasing 500+) .
I think its obvious batsmen's temperaments are much poorer today than what they were in Marshall's day.

Another question I ask myself in comparing bowlers for "greatness" to each other - if you could pick between bowlers for 1 place in the Bangladesh bowling attack who would it be?

No disrespect to McGrath but I wouldn't even have him in my top 10.

Top 10
1 M.Marshall
2 R.Hadlee
3 F.Trueman
4 C.Ambrose
5 SF Barnes
6 Imran Khan
7 Waqar Younis
8 Wasim Akram
9 A.Donald
10 M.Holding
River,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm interested as to how you have Waqar Younis in your top 10. He was a fine bowler, but you surely can't seriously suggest he was fit to carry McGrath's jock strap as a test bowler? He blew seriously hot and cold, and was always cold when he played Australia, especially out here. McGrath took wickets everywhere, against everyone, in all conditions and in an era generally regarded as very batsman-friendly.

I saw Waqar bowl a lot overseas (in footage) and he always looked a million bucks, but when he got out here I wouldn't have given you two bob for him. Imo Akram was an infinitely better bowler than Waqar, and McGrath, whilst not as naturally talented, was a more effective, and thereby greater bowler than them both.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Gotta disagree there. Gatting was fat and lazy - if you watch it, it was a lazy forward defensive prod - barely moved his front leg. A decent batsman would have stretched his leg and easily smothered it.
:blink: You're kidding, right? There was no way anyone had any chance of playing that ball unless they played an absolutely terrible shot.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah but spinners like Warne and Murali can 'spin' batsmen out with unbelievable deliveries.

Did Gatting make a mistake in 1993? I think not.
Brings back a lot of good memories, does that delivery.

Perhaps Gatt could have got further forward, but I suspect he wasn't expecting a ball to turn that far in the second innings of a test match in England. In fairness to him, before that ball, no one probably did and his shot seemed quite respectable until the off bail was removed.

Likewise, Chanderpaul didn't make a mistake when Warne bowled him at the SCG on the last day with a ball that nearly landed off the pitch outside off stump and hit the top of leg.

Strauss, however, did make a mistake when he got bowled in 2005, and again when he gifted Warne his 700th. The latter was regrettable, the former absolutely laughable.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Gotta disagree there. Gatting was fat and lazy - if you watch it, it was a lazy forward defensive prod - barely moved his front leg. A decent batsman would have stretched his leg and easily smothered it.
Don't agree with the fat and lazy bit (a fine batsman) but it is always the batsman's fault when they get bowled behind their legs imo:ph34r:
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
River,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm interested as to how you have Waqar Younis in your top 10. He was a fine bowler, but you surely can't seriously suggest he was fit to carry McGrath's jock strap as a test bowler? He blew seriously hot and cold, and was always cold when he played Australia, especially out here. McGrath took wickets everywhere, against everyone, in all conditions and in an era generally regarded as very batsman-friendly.

I saw Waqar bowl a lot overseas (in footage) and he always looked a million bucks, but when he got out here I wouldn't have given you two bob for him. Imo Akram was an infinitely better bowler than Waqar, and McGrath, whilst not as naturally talented, was a more effective, and thereby greater bowler than them both.

THe problem is that Waqar never toured Australia at his peak.
Waqar's best years were 1990-1995 ......he was a pale shadow of his former self after 1995. If you saw him on Pakistan's tours to Aus in 1995/1996 and 1999/2000 - it was not the Waqar of old.

Trust me, Waqar at his best was every bit as good as Wasim and Imran....he had a strike rate of a wicket every 46 balls which was insanely good.
 

river end

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Perhaps Gatt could have got further forward, but I suspect he wasn't expecting a ball to turn that far in the second innings of a test match in England. In fairness to him, before that ball, no one probably did and his shot seemed quite respectable until the off bail was removed.

Likewise, Chanderpaul didn't make a mistake when Warne bowled him at the SCG on the last day with a ball that nearly landed off the pitch outside off stump and hit the top of leg.
The point is, you don't prod as a batsman in defence as it is likely to get you in trouble, regardless of what he expects the ball to do - therefore it is clearly a batting mistake.
Okay, if he gets an inside edge onto the pad for a catching chance then that is different.

Yes, the Chanderpaul ball was Warne's best delivery - but it didn't directly hit the wicket. The ball actually turned too far, hit Chanderpaul on the upper leg, and deflected on to the stumps.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah but spinners like Warne and Murali can 'spin' batsmen out with unbelievable deliveries.

Did Gatting make a mistake in 1993? I think not.
I think the point was that sheer pace itself is a weapon. Where spin by itself is not going harm anyone unless it is on target.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Obivously the majority of your wicket are going to be upper-middle, given that there are more such batting positions in a team. But his percentage of lower order wickets (37%) is higher than all of the other great bowlers listed, even the spinner Murali.
Big difference however:

Warne bowls after the pacers of Australia do their thing - and they usually take wickets. So there is often nothing but 5-6 wickets left, 3 being the lower end of batsmen. Whereas Murali bowls from the first batsman down and still takes almost as many tail-enders as Warne.

All the others being opening pacers, they haven't had the problem of bowling after a spinner like Warne and Murali, so it's not much of a surprise that their order will be tilted also.



Really? I struggle to think of an occasion when Warne was absent and McGrath was present and the attack struggled. In fact, McGrath's average is tests played without Warne remains pretty much the same.
Yes, statistically, Warne does better when McGrath isn't there than to how McGrath does when Warne isn't there. However, they are small margins, credit to both Warne and McGrath. IIRC, both have an increase about 2 runs on their average but Warne's SR improves.


Give me a break, an average of 30 and a strike rate of 60 are supposed to be impressive? His best was 6/125, hardly a great effort. What you fail to mention is that his opposite spinners Kumble and Harbajan completely outbowled Warne in the series. Face it, even at his best, he couldnt run through an Indian side on spinning wickets.
If that isn't impressive, neither is Murali's best performance in India against India: 31 at 59.5.

The big difference being that Warne missed the best pitch of the series. As I said, Clarke got 6 for 9 weaving his spin on such a pitch. If Warne had bowled he would have surely improved his figures.

Indian players doing well at home is not the issue here. Because their performances in Australia are hardly backing such a theory.


But taking Lara's and Tendulkar's wicket more than anyone does say that McGrath overall was succesful in combatting them and he generally got the better of their exchanges. Cant say the same for Warne, who usually ended on the receiving end. And other good players of spin have dominated Warne as well, including Salim Malik, Sidhu, and Kevin Peitersen. How many players have completely dominated McGrath?
Apart from Lara, who has been taken abnormally by McGrath, all the other batsmen compare with the number of times they've been taken by both bowlers.



It's really a credit to Warne that he stacks up so well. The fact that he has to face most of these batsmen usually after McGrath has, it impedes him from doing much better. And when he does come in and McGrath hasn't taken them, he is facing settled batsmen which is why they often have clocked up runs and the situations are seemingly more dire than when McGrath blasts them on a duck.

So what? McGrath was hindered in the sub-continent, but performed well there.
It is about the fact that every time they're not on a spin-conducive pitch Warne has to work even harder, which is plenty more times than not.

Not all of his comtemporaries rank him the best bowler ever, and most good players of spin such as Mark Waugh, Salim Malik, Kevin Peitersen and Sidhu rated Murali higher.
Great names. Also, Murali also considers Warne as the best ;).

Aside from mentioning his contemporaries, you have yet to give one convincing reason Warne is better than McGrath.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

If the 2005 Ashes didn't convince you that Warne can handle it without McGrath, nothing will convince you of anything.
 
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