• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

A gulf between teams - New Zealand 2001 & 2007.

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
I've been thinking over the last few days about the state of NZ cricket and how we've seen the retirement recently of a number of key players which has left a massive impact on our cricket team. I've decided to compare the two teams (then and now) to see what the difference is.

This comparison is for test cricket.


So, rewind to 2001. Perth, Australia. New Zealand come agonisingly close to defeating the worlds best team at home when the game ends in a draw after NZ had the upper hand throughout most of the match. This isn't, per se, the very best New Zealand team from 10 years, but it's a good starting point.

Two years previously, NZ managed to defeat England at home and in the space of 3 years, had a very good run in test cricket. So what was different then to now? Lets look.


The Openers.
Then - Mark Richardson, Matthew Bell, Lou Vincent, Matthew Horne.
Mark Richardson, arguably one of the openers in an all time NZ XI did a great job for New Zealand at the top of the order and finding a replacement for him has yet to come to fruition. The man left a massive gap, and whats more annoying is that he could still be playing for us!
Matthew Bell played 13 tests between 1998 and the 2001 Australian tour, with little success. He scored just 1 century and 2 fifties at the type of the order and never really cemented himself as New Zealand's first choice opener nor was he seen to be test class.
Matthew Horne had varied success as an opener. 4 centuries and 5 half centuries is OK but a test average of 28.38 is not. Was he just not good enough? IMO, no. I think he was our best option to partner Richardson during that time but he simply wasn't up to it.
Lou Vincent was asked to open on debut at Perth - a very tough call, and answered with a century. He went on to have moderate success opening the batting after that test, the Richardson-Vincent combination the last 'successful' opening partnership New Zealand had.

Ratings:
Mark Richardson - B+
Matthew Bell - D-
Matthew Horne - C-
Lou Vincent - C+

Overall: C+


Now - Craig Cumming, Michael Papps and Jamie How.
There is no doubt that noone has really put their hand up as Richardsons replacement. Noone ever really put their hand up as Richardsons partner either. Since his departure, a number of options have been tried, with the aforementioned 3 the ones who have been given the longest run.
Craig Cumming is the oldest of the lot and, according to most, just a stop gap solution. IMO he's suffered simply by not being given enough game time. New Zealand have played very few tests in recent years, and when they have he's been overlooked for middle order specialists being bumped up the order. Had he played in all the tests since his debut, I think he would've had more success and been averaging mid 30's rather than mid 20's.
He's still our best opening option, and should be persisted with until someone else shoves him out of the team by weight of domestic runs.
Michael Papps is somewhat of an enigma. Slays domestic attacks, has a good technique and seems gifted as a batsman, yet his record is absolutely terrible in tests. True, most of it has been at the hands of the South Africans who have slayed him at every turn. Should he be discarded because of his recent form with the bat, or should he persisted with as one of the very few options we have? IMO, we should keep him for another few series yet. As HeathDavidSpeed said, the South Africans have it over him. I think, nay I HOPE, playing against some different teams this summer will result in some better performances from him.
Jamie How was dropped after failing miserably against Sri Lanka. How seemed to have it going okay before his international call up. He scored runs at domestic level and has a okay technique for an opener, so it was only a matter of time before he was called up. To me, I just don't think he can be a test class opener; ODI grafter, perhaps. But remember, we're not talking about the shorter form here. If he plays any further tests, I hope its due to injury because he should not play on merit alone.

Ratings:
Craig Cumming - C
Michael Papps - D
Jamie How - E

Overall - D-


Next: The Middle Order...
 
Last edited:

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
My personal opinion is , Bracewell needs to go , if NZ Cricket is to start fresh...its pretty clear, his time has long gone...cannot really figure why NZ Cricket is not making the switch to John Wright promptly instead of *****footing around with Bracewell..
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
The Middle Order
Then - Stephen Fleming, Nathan Astle, Craig McMillan, Matthew Sinclair.
To look at those four names, you wouldn't exactly quake in your boots. But given New Zealands recent beatings by the South Africans you would look at that list of names and wish, just wish, they were all back playing for us.
Stephen Fleming, simply, is our best batsman. He hadn't quite reached his peak in 2001 and it's clear that he's past that peak in 2007, but he still has the eye and managed to churn out a few runs when everyone was falling around him in South Africa.
He's close to retiring from test cricket as well, and I cannot yet think of a New Zealand team without Fleming in it. We will definitely miss him.
Nathan Astle had a good, not great, test career. An average of 37 suggests mediocrity but if you look closer, you'll see he averages 40 batting at number 5, which is acceptable. When he was on fire, he was unstoppable, as the English bowlers found out one New Zealand summer.
Craig McMillan was a test batsman who possessed a wealth of talent and ability but yet seemed to be frugal as to when he would actually use it. Still, he averaged more than Astle but could never quite be relied upon to do something special for us when needed. Will always remain a "what could have been?"
Matthew Sinclair has to be one of the most harshly treated players in New Zealand cricket along with Lou Vincent. He can score runs - big runs - when he's in the side, but it's getting in there that seems the trouble. He was dropped, and the selectors seem reluctant to pick him despite him flailing all comers in the domestic scene. When he was finally recalled, he was given just two tests before being dropped unfairly IMO. I think he's better now than he was then, and I hope we get to see that.

Ratings:
Stephen Fleming - A-
Nathan Astle - B-
Craig McMillan - C
Matthew Sinclair - C

Overall: B-


Now - Peter Fulton, Stephen Fleming, Scott Styris, Ross Taylor, Lou Vincent.
Peter Fulton has had few chances at test level, some of which has been ruined by the fact he had to open (stupidly). It's too early to tell yet, but he could be just the man to replace Stephen Fleming as he has the technique, the ability, the record and the mental game. If he can stay injury free, and if New Zealand actually play tests when hes around, he could be better than Fleming.
Stephen Fleming, as mentioned, is close to retiring. I still think he has a few good years in him yet and he's certainly not doing bad enough to get dropped. it's unfortunate that he will leave without our side really having stability.
Scott Styris, bit of an oddity. A first class average lower than his test one, he started as an all rounder but has slotted into the middle order. He was solid there for a while, but recently he's lost form IMO due to the lack of tests played. The question is over whether he would be good to keep in the side or whether he should make way for younger, more talented players. Simply, I think we need him when Fleming retires. We'll need his experience and his ability to grind out runs.
Ross Taylor has just started his test career in poor fashion where everyone else but Vettori failed. He has a lot of talent but he is in a dangerous position of wasting it just like McMillan. A definite wait and see character.
Lou Vincent, as mentioned, one of the most harshly treated cricketers in New Zealands history. he scored a double century and a 90 in the space of three tests but yet was still dropped. Why? Who knows. Maybe because he didn't want to open or maybe because we play so few tests and the selectors have very short term memories. He should be given an extended run in the middle order. His experience is needed, especially for playing the Australians.

Ratings:
Stephen Fleming - B+
Peter Fulton - D
Ross Taylor - E
Scott Styris - C-
Lou Vincent - C

Overall: D


Next: The Wicketkeepers and All Rounders.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Giving Macca a C and Taylor an E seems a bit odd IMO. As Taylor has had so little game time and easily could do better than Macca IMO, though TBF Macca also showed the same promise but my point is Taylor doesn't deserve such a low grade considering how little he has played. And give Fulton a few tests and I believe he will get a significantly better grade than a D.
Otherwise I agree. :)
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Giving Macca a C and Taylor an E seems a bit odd IMO. As Taylor has had so little game time and easily could do better than Macca IMO, though TBF Macca also showed the same promise but my point is Taylor doesn't deserve such a low grade considering how little he has played. And give Fulton a few tests before you judge him.

Otherwise I agree. :)
I went on what they've currently done, and Taylors did stuff all. Harsh, I know, but I wanted to emphasize the gulf between the two times.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
I went on what they've currently done, and Taylors did stuff all. Harsh, I know, but I wanted to emphasize the gulf between the two times.
Understandable but in Taylor/Fultons case they haven't been given a big enough chance yet to grade 'em accurately which skews the overall grade IMO. Taylor could end up an A for all we know (in the next 4 or so years) unlikely yes, but feasible and Fulton should become a high class batsman himself.

Very interested to see the next ratings though.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Averages just under 35 (34.60) against Test standard teams, loved him but not one of the very best. Could've been.
You sure about that? I don't remember him cashing in against Bangladesh, or post 2003 WC Zimbabwe.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
You sure about that? I don't remember him cashing in against Bangladesh, or post 2003 WC Zimbabwe.
He most certainly did, averages above 80 against them both (though I just excluded all Zim as I have never rated their bowling any higher than Bangers).
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He most certainly did, averages above 80 against them both (though I just excluded all Zim as I have never rated their bowling any higher than Bangers).
Not really in the mood or frame of mind, but I'll try :p

McMillan averages 37.21 against Test standard sides, which is good for a Kiwi. He never scored runs against a Zimbabwe side that wasn't Test standard, with all of the 5 Tests he played against them being played in or before 2000. He scored two centuries against bowlers such as Heath Streak, Pommy Mbangwa, Adam Huckle, Henry Olonga, Brian Strang and Guy Whittall. Not the greatest of bowlers, Streak excluded, but still fairly good. It didn't help that he played 12 Tests against Australia either, denting his average significantly.
 

Fiery

Banned
Not really in the mood or frame of mind, but I'll try :p

McMillan averages 37.21 against Test standard sides, which is good for a Kiwi. He never scored runs against a Zimbabwe side that wasn't Test standard, with all of the 5 Tests he played against them being played in or before 2000. He scored two centuries against bowlers such as Heath Streak, Pommy Mbangwa, Adam Huckle, Henry Olonga, Brian Strang and Guy Whittall. Not the greatest of bowlers, Streak excluded, but still fairly good. It didn't help that he played 12 Tests against Australia either, denting his average significantly.
How did your last exam go Perm? School's out forever I hear
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I have big wraps on Ross Taylor, reckon he's one for the future. Haven't sseen much of N.Z. cricket lately which is a bit disapointing, as they're my favourite team behind the Windies and Australia.
 

Top