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Thread: Tendulkar vs Kallis

  1. #76
    RTDAS pasag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manee View Post
    Kallis clearly has the better average and this makes Kallis the better Test match batsman.
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  2. #77
    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasag View Post
    A foolish comment on my behalf but reading the rest of the post will make you realise the context which I have put the figures in.
    The speed at which a fielding team gets through the innings is overrated.

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    I don't like Tendulkar so statistics tells the whole story



    I like Tendulkar ,so statistics never tells the whole story

  4. #79
    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnygirl View Post
    I don't like Tendulkar so statistics tells the whole story

    I like Tendulkar ,so statistics never tells the whole story
    Different forms of the game, if you want me to provide statistics of Tendulkar being better than Kallis in ODIs, please ask but I do not think it is necessary.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Manee View Post
    Different forms of the game, if you want me to provide statistics of Tendulkar being better than Kallis in ODIs, please ask but I do not think it is necessary.
    ODIs are nothing.Tests are importanat .Moreover don't bring statistics minus minnows

    Manee ,i was kidding . These are all personal preferences . A very good member of this forum The Sean stated this "'Statistics are fans' bloody tactics'.Very true.

  6. #81
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnygirl View Post
    ODIs are nothing.Tests are importanat .Moreover don't bring statistics minus minnows

    Manee ,i was kidding . These are all personal preferences . A very good member of this forum The Sean stated this "'Statistics are fans' bloody tactics'.Very true.
    I'm bordering on positive that I never said that.

    But I like the compliment so much I'm prepared to take credit regardless.
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  7. #82
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaZoH0lic View Post
    Deny it? You say it as a fact. No, I am not sure he would. His contemporary in his own team hasn't managed it (Dravid) and he has been said to be equal to the likes of Ponting and Kallis so it is no automatic assumption. COULD he? Sure. But he didn't.
    I think it's an assumption that's about as safe as any. If Ponting, Kallis etc. could average 70 in said time, I think it's almost a given that Tendulkar, who had bashed poor attacks mercilessly whenever he encountered them between 1990 and 2002, would have been able to had he not, very obviously, declined considerably as a batsman.

    Either way - pointless to debate the matter further.
    2003-2007, 5 years of averaging sub-50 in an 'easy' era. I think that does dent his legacy of the 12 before, sorry to say.
    If it does to you, then you shall naturally believe the copious number of things you believe which I so vehemently do not. I, however, am very happy that they barely dent it at all.
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  8. #83
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I think it's an assumption that's about as safe as any. If Ponting, Kallis etc. could average 70 in said time, I think it's almost a given that Tendulkar, who had bashed poor attacks mercilessly whenever he encountered them between 1990 and 2002, would have been able to had he not, very obviously, declined considerably as a batsman.

    Either way - pointless to debate the matter further.
    Well, the thing is, people back then did expect him to go on and continue to dominate, being the greatest since Bradman. The fact that he didn't goes a way to show that he wasn't as good as we thought he was. So, to naturally expect that, in that time, was fine. Now, in hindsight, where he didn't do it, I can look back and say: yes, it is possible he wouldn't average as well as Ponting or Kallis...because he didn't. And only so much of that stems from his injuries or his career length.

    The opposite sadly, won't ever be recognised by you simply because the other two had their successes in this era. I, for one, think at his best, which is occurring at the moment, Ponting could have done the same as Sachin did in the 90s. But that's another argument altogether.

    If it does to you, then you shall naturally believe the copious number of things you believe which I so vehemently do not. I, however, am very happy that they barely dent it at all.
    Yeah, I'm sorry to say I do. I have seen him batting poorly and gone through that trough which shows me he isn't the batsman I originally thought he was, so I do reassess what I had originally thought and the next time I compare him I take a look at all of his career, just as I do with the person he is being compared to.
    Last edited by Ikki; 20-11-2007 at 12:52 PM.
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  9. #84
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaZoH0lic View Post
    Well, the thing is, people back then did expect him to go on and continue to dominate, being the greatest since Bradman. The fact that he didn't goes a way to show that he wasn't as good as we thought he was. So, to naturally expect that, in that time, was fine. Now, in hindsight, where he didn't do it, I can look back and say: yes, it is possible he wouldn't average as well as Ponting or Kallis...because he didn't. And only so much of that stems from his injuries or his career length.

    The opposite sadly, won't ever be recognised by you simply because the other two had their successes in this era. I, for one, think at his best, which is occurring at the moment, Ponting could have done the same as Sachin did in the 90s. But that's another argument altogether.
    I don't find it completely out of the question, I should say - not the way I do find it out of the question that Hayden could have come close to what he's done since 2001\02.

    However, the fact that Ponting didn't do what he did until the exact time the bowling-attacks weakened goes a way to show that he's not as good as some think he is.

    Incidentally, anyone calling Tendulkar the best after Bradman, for mine, was going too far - and not because I thought Vivian Richards was better than Tendulkar either.
    Yeah, I'm sorry to say I do. I have seen him batting poorly and gone through that trough which shows me he isn't the batsman I originally thought he was, so I do reassess what I had originally thought and the next time I compare him I take a look at all of his career, just as I do with the person he is being compared to.
    What, out of interest, would have been your thoughts had his career been ended by tennis-elbow (as careers were even just 30 years ago or so) in late 2003?

    Would you still rate him lower because "he was only able to do it for 12 years"?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I don't find it completely out of the question, I should say - not the way I do find it out of the question that Hayden could have come close to what he's done since 2001\02.
    Another comparison where you put too little thought into...

    However, the fact that Ponting didn't do what he did until the exact time the bowling-attacks weakened goes a way to show that he's not as good as some think he is.
    The difference being that Ponting was rather green and to predict him now as he is back then is just a prediction. Yet you'd deny that, and you'd support something that actually DID happen - Tendulkar being unsuccessful - yet still saying he should have continued with his form prior. I just find that hilarious.

    Incidentally, anyone calling Tendulkar the best after Bradman, for mine, was going too far - and not because I thought Vivian Richards was better than Tendulkar either.
    Of course, I wasn't really asking that from you. I was just putting it out there that back then people did expect a lot from Tendulkar and to continue on that form would have been one of them.

    What, out of interest, would have been your thoughts had his career been ended by tennis-elbow (as careers were even just 30 years ago or so) in late 2003?
    Simply put: a great batsman that finished early. Top 10, but no longer top 5. I'm not sure myself whether I rate him above Dravid anymore.

    Would you still rate him lower because "he was only able to do it for 12 years"?
    I would rate him lower because he had the tools to do much better in an 'easier' era, regardless how well he did prior. I don't necessarily pick and choose like you, unless the extenuating circumstance compels me to.
    Last edited by Ikki; 21-11-2007 at 12:39 AM.

  11. #86
    Hall of Fame Member honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Now as a batsman? Kallis is the better test batsman atm, and Sachin ODI.

    Overall as a batsman, Sachin in both forms. Simple as that.


    What he said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    In the end, I think it's so utterly, incomprehensibly boring. There is so much context behind each innings of cricket that dissecting statistics into these small samples is just worthless. No-one has ever been faced with the same situation in which they come out to bat as someone else. Ever.
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  12. #87
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaZoH0lic View Post
    Another comparison where you put too little thought into...
    I put plenty and plenty into it, but I really think (in fact I know) that most people would prefer us not to go over it again.
    The difference being that Ponting was rather green and to predict him now as he is back then is just a prediction. Yet you'd deny that, and you'd support something that actually DID happen - Tendulkar being unsuccessful - yet still saying he should have continued with his form prior. I just find that hilarious.
    I find it equally fair to say "Ponting\Kallis was only doing no-more-than-good 1997-2001 because he was green" as I do to say "Tendulkar has declined from 2003 because of an injury and wear-and-tear".

    Personally, I don't find Tendulkar's decline anything other than baffling, and had certainly hoped that once he'd shaken-off said tennis-elbow he'd be able to return to his old ways. Nor do I believe Ponting's improvement was sufficient to explain an average leap from 45 to 70.

    In my view, "Ponting was green" is no fairer argument than "Ponting's run-scoring got so massively better because of bowling-attacks rather than any massive change in himself".
    Last edited by Richard; 21-11-2007 at 12:53 PM.

  13. #88
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I put plenty and plenty into it, but I really think (in fact I know) that most people would prefer us not to go over it again.

    I find it equally fair to say "Ponting\Kallis was only doing no-more-than-good 1997-2001 because he was green" as I do to say "Tendulkar has declined from 2003 because of an injury and wear-and-tear".

    Personally, I don't find Tendulkar's decline anything other than baffling, and had certainly hoped that once he'd shaken-off said tennis-elbow he'd be able to return to his old ways. Nor do I believe Ponting's improvement was sufficient to explain an average leap from 45 to 70.

    In my view, "Ponting was green" is no fairer argument than "Ponting's run-scoring got so massively better because of bowling-attacks rather than any massive change in himself".
    Well, to be honest, your views are not that surprising anymore. But the difference between Ponting or Kalllis and Tendulkar in the first era is at most 10 runs. In this era it is 20-30. Surely, you're not going to keep playing the injury. Or, wait, I think you will. So no, I don't think it is equally fair.

  14. #89
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funnygirl View Post
    I don't like Tendulkar so statistics tells the whole story



    I like Tendulkar ,so statistics never tells the whole story
    Sums it up for mine. QFT.
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  15. #90
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy View Post
    QFT.

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