View Poll Results: The better bowler ?

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  • Curtley Ambrose

    60 59.41%
  • Glenn McGrath

    41 40.59%
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Thread: Ambrose v McGrath

  1. #136
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    I guess if emotional content was part of the assessment then I would prefer Ambrose because he was more engaging and more fun to watch.

    However, the question is not who is the more entertaining or fun, but who is the better bowler? - that is, who is more likely to put the ball in the right spot the most often to pick-up wickets under varying conditions and circumstances more frequently.

    In other words, if your life depended on either Ambrose of McGrath bowling a side out, who would you choose?
    Last edited by watson; 08-05-2013 at 02:14 AM.
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  2. #137
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    But your last two comparisons are different extremes aren't they? Well not on asylum seeker policy when it comes to Abbott and Gillard - they're the same. Ohhhhhhhhh i went there.

    But anyway - It is rare that you'd have someone say "I think capitalism is JUST SLIGHTLY better than socialism". You'd be a fan of one, the other, or neither you'd think.

    Whereas here, you're comparing two fast bowlers who average low 20s with the ball over a long period of time. Who dominated the best batsman in the opposition's team on a regular basis. And a whole bunch of other similarities that I cbf to mention.

    So if 20 more people think Ambrose is slightly better than McGrath than vice versa, it doesn't necessarily mean its not a close contest as per the poll.

    If the choices involve 'different extremes' in bowling talent then you would expect a large swing in a poll one way or the other. For example, Curtly Ambrose V Martin Sneddon.

    Likewise, if the voting population is 'inherently biased' then you would also expect a large swing in the poll one way or the other. For example, Sachin Tendulkar V Ricky Ponting in downtown Mumbai, or Viv Richards V Ricky Ponting in uptown St Johns, Antigua.

    Because there is about a 30% difference in the voting I expect one of the above two scenarios to be taking place.

    So which one then is it? 'Different extremes' or 'Inherently biased'? I don't think that the CW population is 'inherently biased' because we are pretty well educated in cricket, and quite diverse culturally. So we can discount that explanation.

    Rather, I think that Ambrose and McGrath DO represent two different extremes and that is the reason for the large difference in the voting. However, not in respect to bowling talent, but rather in the context of showmanship.

    Put simply, Ambrose hits positive emotional chords that McGrath can't hope to reach because of his own negative persona/personality.
    Last edited by watson; 08-05-2013 at 02:52 AM.

  3. #138
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    So you admit that a poll saying 60-40 (which is what this poll says) can mean a lot of things, and does not necessarily mean that CW believes Ambrose is much better than McGrath?

    My point is it is wrong to see a 60-40 poll and immediately assume that CW overrates Ambrose or underrates McGrath. You would need more data, such as perhaps if everyone gave a score/rating for both bowlers from 1-10. If the overall average, or the median score, or whatever stat you wanted to think of - came up Ambrose 9 and McGrath 7 - then you could argue that CW has Ambrose as "too much higher than McGrath".

    I haven't voted, but if I voted one of these, I would honestly have them almost equal and whatever separated them would be incredibly miniscule (they both make my All-time World XI). So if I happened to vote Ambrose and made the score 61-40, are you going to say that I am one of those people that incorrectly views Ambrose as way way better than McGrath?

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    McGrath was awesome. I have no doubt that, as brilliant as people view him now, his reputation will increase over time just like Curtley's has. Aussies are well aware of how amazing he was but because he was so often a dickwad on the field (as opposed to a great bloke off it), it coloured people's views of him.

    People appreciate him more and more now that he's gone. And this will continue.
    Quite right. A poll conducted now (6 years after this one) would no doubt have different results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    So you admit that a poll saying 60-40 (which is what this poll says) can mean a lot of things, and does not necessarily mean that CW believes Ambrose is much better than McGrath?

    My point is it is wrong to see a 60-40 poll and immediately assume that CW overrates Ambrose or underrates McGrath. You would need more data, such as perhaps if everyone gave a score/rating for both bowlers from 1-10. If the overall average, or the median score, or whatever stat you wanted to think of - came up Ambrose 9 and McGrath 7 - then you could argue that CW has Ambrose as "too much higher than McGrath".

    I haven't voted, but if I voted one of these, I would honestly have them almost equal and whatever separated them would be incredibly miniscule (they both make my All-time World XI). So if I happened to vote Ambrose and made the score 61-40, are you going to say that I am one of those people that incorrectly views Ambrose as way way better than McGrath?


    This is what always happens with polls on here because a small number of people don't grasp how close each individual thinks the two players are. If you did Hadlee v Garner, Hadlee would get all the votes until a few people decide the result needs to be closer and start giving Garner sympathy votes.

  6. #141
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    So you admit that a poll saying 60-40 (which is what this poll says) can mean a lot of things, and does not necessarily mean that CW believes Ambrose is much better than McGrath?

    My point is it is wrong to see a 60-40 poll and immediately assume that CW overrates Ambrose or underrates McGrath. You would need more data, such as perhaps if everyone gave a score/rating for both bowlers from 1-10. If the overall average, or the median score, or whatever stat you wanted to think of - came up Ambrose 9 and McGrath 7 - then you could argue that CW has Ambrose as "too much higher than McGrath".

    I haven't voted, but if I voted one of these, I would honestly have them almost equal and whatever separated them would be incredibly miniscule (they both make my All-time World XI). So if I happened to vote Ambrose and made the score 61-40, are you going to say that I am one of those people that incorrectly views Ambrose as way way better than McGrath?
    If the question of the thread is who is 'the better bowler' and the voting is 60:40 in favour of Ambrose, then there can only be one conclusion - CW currently believes that Ambrose is a 'better bowler' than McGrath.

    We can then argue by how much, or why people voted the way they did. But the fact remains, a significant amount of people think that Ambrose is a 'better bowler' than McGrath - right here, right now. This stand alone fact, independent of everything else, is ODD given the facts of their respective careers.
    Last edited by watson; 08-05-2013 at 03:37 AM.

  7. #142
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    am wondering... if ambrose and mcgrath were to open the bowling for a dream XI, could any other team produce a better opening combo ever?

    sure lillee and marshall would be more exciting to watch. holding and imran would be faster. donald and waqar may strike quicker. akram and barnes may produce more variety. truman and garner would be more intimidating. hadlee and roberts may be more clinical. but can any other pair be actually better than ambrose and mcgrath taking the new ball? you can match them by pitting the other champion pairs against them. but i guess, they both as a combo can never be bettered as fast bowlers.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    am wondering... if ambrose and mcgrath were to open the bowling for a dream XI, could any other team produce a better opening combo ever?

    sure lillee and marshall would be more exciting to watch. holding and imran would be faster. donald and waqar may strike quicker. akram and barnes may produce more variety. truman and garner would be more intimidating. hadlee and roberts may be more clinical. but can any other pair be actually better than ambrose and mcgrath taking the new ball? you can match them by pitting the other champion pairs against them. but i guess, they both as a combo can never be bettered as fast bowlers.
    Depends on where they are playing. They would falter somewhat in the SC compared to a pair of let's say Hadlee and Marshall.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  9. #144
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    its not right here right now, votes have been coming in for 6 years ****s. and how much voting is down to nationalistic bias ffs
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  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Depends on where they are playing. They would falter somewhat in the SC compared to a pair of let's say Hadlee and Marshall.
    Why would Ambrose and McGrath falter in the SC?

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyanash89 View Post
    Why would Ambrose and McGrath falter in the SC?
    From what I recall McGrath was ok but not that great in Pakistan and Amby not so good against India.

  12. #147
    International Vice-Captain robelinda's Avatar
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    Ambrose never played in India in tests did he? Only a few tests in 1990 vs Pakistan, or so I thought. Kinda like how Holding never played a single test vs Pakistan, weird.

    edit- yep http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling

    Curtly's average of 38 vs India (overall) is the stand out bad team for him, bit like Donald 33 vs Aus, Wasim 32 vs England. does McGrath have a +30 team (overall)?
    Last edited by robelinda; 08-05-2013 at 04:57 AM.
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  13. #148
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    I don't think he has a 30+ team overall

  14. #149
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    McGrath's highest average was 27 against South Africa. Averaged 23 in South Africa though so it's South Africa at home where he has any real problems statistically.

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  15. #150
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    Can be at least partially explained by playing against them on some really flat decks where they abolutely stone-walled him. Didn't even try to look for runs sometimes which helped Warne clean up at the other end.
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