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2007 has been pretty good for England ODI side.

deira

Banned
It has been pretty good. They won the VB series in Australia, then world cup was ok, They won the home series against india and now in sri lanka they are winning.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Haha, as is currently being discussed in the SL-vs-Eng thread, not what it seems IMO. For starters, the CBS was a complete freak (not a fluke mind) and it was also won by a team that bears little resemblence to the current one.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
OK, let's do some serious analysis of those who've played for England in 2007:

Kevin Pietersen
Actually a wholly average year by his standards, managed to haul himself up to vague respectibility in the summer of 2007, having had a decent but fruitless World Cup and missed most of the CBS, but has been poor again in Sri Lanka.

Paul Collingwood
Same old same old - superlative performances against substandard sides and the odd sensational sequence (the 106, 120 and 70, and the 44, 27, 44, 47, 91*, 1, 64*) disguising a whole lot mediocrity in between

Owais Shah
A bit better than his previous ODI incarnations, which would have been almost impossible to worsen, but still distinctly poor, really - a good series against West Indies, a poor one against India (disguised due to a crucial bad decision) and a pretty poor one against Sri Lanka so far. Still categorically not a ODI-standard player and if I were pushed I'd say less likely than more to become one.

Ian Bell
One step forward, two back; poor start to the CB Series, decent finish; inconclusive World Cup; three consecutive excellent innings in the summer, but other than that the familiar story of lots of starts and the odd few low scores. Still with credit in the bank of course, but still with plenty to prove.

Edmund Joyce
Not an opener, picked mostly to open. Nothing in the opening slot (except 1 exceptionally fortunate innings) and also little in the middle. Be a while before we see him again I can't help think.

Alastair Cook
Might become a good ODI player; might become the next Strauss\Vaughan.

Ravinder Bopara
A good cool head and pretty much nothing else to date.

Luke Wright
WTF is he being picked for on the basis of what amounts to nothing more than half a season of decent performance after years of utter rubbishness?

Matthew Prior
So obviously not a ODI batsman, never mind a ODI opener, it baffles me he was picked again. Oh, no, wait, he performed in Tests - no it doesn't!

Philip Mustard
Seems like the next Jones\Prior so far.

Paul Nixon
Did his job pretty damn decently when called-upon, but it was always going to be a short-term job and rightly so.

Stuart Broad
Still far more promise than performance - hugely overrated in the accuracy stakes, and mostly still only able to offer a threat in extremely seam-friendly conditions.

Dimitri Mascarenhas
Despite an excellent start to his ODI career - heck, he's even slogged a few runs - he still can't get in the side. :blink:

Liam Plunkett
Somehow or other has taken 19 wickets at 23.57 in his last 9 ODIs against ODI-standard sides. The economy-rate (5.68) tells a truer picture of course, but it still baffles how such a terrible bowler has got so many wickets while perhaps once (second CBS final) bowling with any real penetration. Out of the picture for the moment, though.

Andrew Flintoff
Still a fine bowler... on the rare occasion he's fit these days. Batting seems to be a thing of the past, though, if he's ever really fit again.

Michael Yardy
Let's hope he never plays another ODI.

Mal Loye
Being a late bloomer means you're only likely to get 1 chance, and Loye sadly failed to take his.

Jamie Dalrymple
Picking someone with virtually no big strokes to bat at eight really isn't the brightest idea, especially when he's shown he actually can sometimes do a decent job higher in the order. Typical average fingerspinner, too, and was never going to do much of a job for long.

Andrew Strauss (same comments apply to Michael Vaughan)
How long is Test form going to fool someone when looking at ODI credentials? Usually, quite a long time. Let's hope that time is now gone.

Chris Tremlett
Terrible ODI bowler - lacks accuracy in the shorter format, hope he never plays again, but that's unlikely.

MS Panesar
Still a nothing ODI bowler, WTF is anyone thinking picking him at the current time? Worse still, why are people still saying it's worrying that he's not being picked, thereby essentially implying that if England are to have a good side he has to be part of it?

Graeme Swann
Might just be the next Kumara Dharmasena, but that's a big ask. A good start, and let's hope for the best from now on. For once, someone who's done the job reasonably well at the domestic level has got a go. On the other hand, watch as he becomes the next Mascarenhas when MSP rips it up in the Tests and userps him for no good reason.

Sajid Mahmood
Very probably the worst specialist bowler ever to be picked for England in ODIs.

Ryan Sidebottom
Poor first 2 games back, but damn good later on... for all of 3 games so far. Let's wait and see, but I am still more worried than hopeful.

James Anderson
Still generally thought to be the leader of the attack, but still more reliant on a golden-arm than genuine wicket-taking potency to be so. If your attack leader is cut from this cloth, you have many reasons to worry.

Obviously, an eternal optimist could put a different spin on things. But only one of those IMO.
 

deira

Banned
I disagree about paul collingwood, he has scored some great knocks this year. Also he has scored a lot of important 20's and 30's.

I agree about Dimitri Mascarenhas, why is he not in the side?
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Paul Collingwood
Same old same old - superlative performances against substandard sides and the odd sensational sequence (the 106, 120 and 70, and the 44, 27, 44, 47, 91*, 1, 64*) disguising a whole lot mediocrity in between

Dimitri Mascarenhas
Despite an excellent start to his ODI career - heck, he's even slogged a few runs - he still can't get in the side. :blink:

If this isn't favouritism, I don't know what is.
 

Julian87

State Captain
The keeper is the main worry IMO.

Jones, Nixon, Prior or Mustard aren't the answer. But out of those lot, I'd definitely go Prior.

I am amazed that although having such a strong first class competition, England can select a keeper who has an absolute DISMAL batting record.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
I enjoyed reading the list. I think almost everyone was accurately appraised.
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
Why does our keeper have to open? It's fine if they're good enough, but what's wrong with playing them at seven and playing a specialist in the opening position?
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
Oh, and to go back to the post... the second half of 2007 has been pretty good. It's nice to have a few good results to build on. The first half of 2007 was painful.
 

cpr

International Coach
Agree about this fascination with the keeper opening. Best batting form by a keeper this year was Nixon IMO, steady if not spectacular down the order. Dunno if he was helped or aided by this, but he tended to come in with a fair few overs to go after another dismal top order showing. Whether or not his steadying the ship approach was the key to his performances, or a frustration to his OD batting instincts i dont know, someone else can answer that.

IMO the likes of Stewart, Flower and Gilchrist were three very remarkable keeper/batsmen, the fact they all played around the same time has lulled selectors into thinking there must be an abundance of these sorts around. Doesnt help that Dhoni is shaping up to follow in their footsteps, but i think selectors are looking for a golden ticket that doesnt exist ATM. If someone emerges who can do the job, great, but trying to fit players into the mould isnt going to work.

Personally think for someone with 135 caps, Collingwoods been far too inconsistant with the bat (especially as he's picked as a batsman who can throw down a few overs). Problem is batting around 5, he's key to the latter part of the innings, should be looking to play through with the tail (cant rely on Shah/Bopara to do that half as effectively), so when he goes quickly, it can really tear up an innings regardless of how they've batted before.

Swanns proved a couple of things. Firstly a player in great form and confidence from a good domestic season can be better than pushing a 'star' player who's either out of form or uncomfortable in that form of the game. Second is that Monty isnt our only hope. He doesnt have to play every match, bowl every winning ball. His batting is a terrible weakness in ODI's, and someone like Swann can make up the difference in bowling ability with the bat. In a game where 10-20 runs could be the difference between winning and losing (especially when the 20 runs come briskly, compared to an eeked out 5 at the end), Swann is at the least a key player to have in the squad. If anything, the selectors should make it clear to monty not to worry about ODI's, there not his problem, just focus on becoming the test great he has the potential to achieve.

As for Broad, quietly confident he'll become a key part of the team in years to come. What he's lacking at the moment is guidance. Bowling coaches can only do so much (and less if there changing every 6 months). In a match, especially the latter stages of a ODI, a young inexperienced player like himself needs a senior figure to guide him, advise him on the best ways to bowl given the match conditions, keep him calm and focused etc. Jimmy Anderson isnt that, not even sure Flintoff could be considered for the role either. The teams lacking a Caddick/Fraser type figure (Hoggards probably the nearest we have, but doesnt play ODI's..... which leads back to Monty, if they can do it for Hoggard, imperitive they do it for Monty). Does explain Sidebottoms performances despite lack of international experience, as a older and more (domestically) experienced player, he's a bit stronger mentally and doesnt need the guidance someone like Broad needs.

Still, without such guidance, Broads certainly shaping up far better than the other young pretenders (esp Plunkett and Mahmood) in regards to being a key player in the future
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Why does our keeper have to open? It's fine if they're good enough, but what's wrong with playing them at seven and playing a specialist in the opening position?
Agree about this fascination with the keeper opening. Best batting form by a keeper this year was Nixon IMO, steady if not spectacular down the order. Dunno if he was helped or aided by this, but he tended to come in with a fair few overs to go after another dismal top order showing. Whether or not his steadying the ship approach was the key to his performances, or a frustration to his OD batting instincts i dont know, someone else can answer that.

IMO the likes of Stewart, Flower and Gilchrist were three very remarkable keeper/batsmen, the fact they all played around the same time has lulled selectors into thinking there must be an abundance of these sorts around. Doesnt help that Dhoni is shaping up to follow in their footsteps, but i think selectors are looking for a golden ticket that doesnt exist ATM. If someone emerges who can do the job, great, but trying to fit players into the mould isnt going to work.
Abso-bloody-lutely, been thinking this ever since Geraint was pushed up to open in 2004\05 (he'd never even opened for Kent FFS). It's plain madness. Stewart opened in far more of his ODIs than not, and of course everyone in this country has had Gilchristomania for the last 6 years. Some people seem to have got the idea you can ape him purely by opening with a wicketkeeper - you can't, the player has to have the ability with the bat first, which Jones, Prior and Mustard patently don't.

I've said it ever since 2003; of those who can keep wicket, Chris Read is the best one-day batsman in the country, his one-day record for the last 5 years has been better than any other candidate, and it's time he was stuck in down the order and left there IMO. Hopefully we might have Trescothick back to open and hopefully by the time he's back Cook might have done something to convince us that he's going to be a good one-day player. If not, I'd be happy enough for Bell to get a run opening, but the idea of Cook and Bell opening puts me in mind of one thing: :wallbash:
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Agreed about he WK opening because Gilchrist does notion, but at least Mustard does that domestically, which seems to have been completely forgotten. Not that he's shown a lot yet, but it is only four games. Given that the top 6 have generally struggled in SL, it would seem odd to effectively make him the scapegoat.

The trouble with replacing him with Read plus a new opener (and do we really expect Tres to come back? Come on, be honest ..) is we lose a bowler, which doesn't sound smart to me. Or we lose one of our top 6, which I don't fancy either. tbh if our keeper averages around 20plus at the top of the order at a decent rate and doesn't miss many behind the stumps, then that isn't the worst solution on earth.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There's a place for no-one who averages in the low to mid 20s in ODIs, even if they score at 150 per 100 balls every innings. IMO, at least. Leave that to the Twenty20.

Sure, Mustard's only had 4 games so far, but has he really not looked exactly the same to you as Prior? Prior too was picked on 1 (you could even say 2 - 2004 and 2005 IIRR) good domestic season, but has done sod-all of any note. He opens for Sussex in OD cricket too. Has Mustard's keeping looked top-shelf to you? It hasn't to me. He's already missed at least 1 clear chance.

Personally, TBH, I've always rated Read in the shorter game and felt he's had a hugely raw deal where ODIs are concerned.

I don't really expect to see Trescothick back, no, but until there is clearly someone who can do quarter of the job he did, I feel we've got no choice but to hope. There's just no strokeplaying opening batsmen around at present who are also likely to be around in 2011 (and not exactly that many defensive ones either) who look anything other than utterly rubbish at the short game.

The basic fact of the matter is that without Flintoff, which could well be a full-stop case pretty soon, we struggle for balance. But having a wicketkeeper open won't really help that, it'll just create the illusion of balance where none really exists.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Ok, so given that Tres won't be playing next time out (presumably in NZ), if your picking Read, what does the rest of the side look like (a) if Fred does play (b) if, more likely than not, he doesn't?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Look, we've always known that no Trescothick and no Flintoff = a decidedly average England side. Sadly, both seem to be coming ever closer to certainties.

It'd be something like:
Cook
Mr X
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood (unfortunately)
Shah \ Bopara
Read
Swann
Broad
Sidebottom
Anderson
It should be noted, though, that there's no chance at all of Read getting back in for said NZ tour, barring about 4 injuries. And the rest of the side has been picked in the certainty that the players I don't rate, at least at the current time (Shah, Bopara, Broad, Anderson) are nailed-on certainties, and one I'd have in without a moment's thought (Mascarenhas) is highly unlikely.

TBH, I'd happily have Mascarenhas as the fifth bowler instead of both Shah and Bopara, but I don't see anyone ever trusting Read to bat six, which is rather a shame when you have maybe as many as three capable bowlers-who-bat-a-bit (Swann, Mascarenhas, Broad) below.

We could afford this - beyond a doubt - if we had a powerful top-five, and had Trescothick been available, Loye been 5 years younger, Afzaal been picked, and Pietersen been looking more convincing at the current time that might just be the case. It's not, though, and as such in order to cover certain holes it's not possible to get the pneumatic (sp, possibly - CBA to spellcheck) drill out to properly bore the hole you want, having instead to make do with the shovel.
 
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Athlai

Not Terrible
That's the one.
Seems alright, I find his capacity and battle points a little worrying at only 1 and I can't see how stealth helps in the game of cricket, especially for an opening batsman. Never going to be more than average IMO.
 

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