Leading ODI Wicket takers .

[Bazza]

I think they are very close and very difficult to separate, but Anilramavarma intentionally avoided trying to say one was better than the other or vice versa, instead happy to sit on the fence whilst pointing out that Kapil was a class act. And who can blame him...

 

[Rik]

Correction. Botham was not the second best becuase Imran comes into the equation as well here. The figures speak for themselves. We have had this just a little time ago.

Yeah but I'm not sure who it was, but I read it (maybe WCM) and they put Botham 2nd behind Sobers.

 

[Rik]

I think they are very close and very difficult to separate, but Anilramavarma intentionally avoided trying to say one was better than the other or vice versa, instead happy to sit on the fence whilst pointing out that Kapil was a class act. And who can blame him...

Yeah ok, but excuse me if I'm a little tired of people posting comments about "We had a player who was even better than your Bottom" :rolleyes:

 

[Gotchya]

What has anything got to do with bottom ?

 

[Rik]

What has anything got to do with bottom ?

They can't spell Botham...

 

[aussie_beater]

Yeah ok, but excuse me if I'm a little tired of people posting comments about "We had a player who was even better than your Bottom" :rolleyes:

Now that's a nasty one

 

[Rik]

Now that's a nasty one

Considering they were trying to say Botham...:rolleyes:

 

[marc71178]

Correction. Botham was not the second best becuase Imran comes into the equation as well here. The figures speak for themselves. We have had this just a little time ago.

We did, and at the start of the discussion I was firmly of the opinion that Botham was a better player - I now rate Imran as the greatest of all time.

 

[Rik]

We did, and at the start of the discussion I was firmly of the opinion that Botham was a better player - I now rate Imran as the greatest of all time.

Sobers was a better batsman and a very good bowler although his average doesn't show it. I'd rate Sobers higher.

 

[Wazztodd]

When my kids were young, I used to listen to short wave feeds from subcontinent commentators, calling the English touring party games. One night, my daughter said to me, "That guy Iron Bottom...it's a silly nickname , but he's good, huh?"

All-rounders

1 - Sobers
2 - Imran
3 - Bottom
4 - Kapil

 

[Anil]

I think they are very close and very difficult to separate, but Anilramavarma intentionally avoided trying to say one was better than the other or vice versa, instead happy to sit on the fence whilst pointing out that Kapil was a class act. And who can blame him...

Yes, it was intentional, but it was not for sitting on any fence. BTW, I didn't see you rank them in your post. Both players had things working in their favour and both had factors against them. So, it is very difficult to rate one ahead of the other.

Kapil:

+ves

Fantastic outswinger(he had the full armoury, but his outswinger was exceptional)
Lone strike bowler for most of his career, others came and went, did ok sometimes, but.....he was a class apart.
Very fit, no major injury scares in his career.

-ves

Lone strike bowler was a -ve too in the sense that very often he had to assume the dual roles of stike bowler and stock bowler because the other bowlers just didn't measure up.

Atleast half of his career was on dead subcontinent pitches(India, Pakistan, SL(?)) where for a pace bowler, patience was the only weapon.

His strike rate and average went down considerably towards the end of his career when he was maybe 1/5th the bowler he once was, but he didn't go and the team didn't let him go because he was on target for overtaking Hadlee's haul.

Botham:

+ves

Versatile bowler. Had all the tricks in the book and then some. Had a knack of taking lots of wickets off even ordinary balls(not a negative comment, it is just a fact which has been noted about Botham)

Had quality bowlers like Willis and Dilley(as Rik pointed out) to bowl with. This is a positive too in the sense that he rarely had to bowl like a stock bowler like Kapil.

Bowled a lot on English, Australian and West Indian pitches which helped pace and swing a lot. Of course bowled in the subcontinent too, but much lesser comapared to say, Kapil or Imran for obvious reasons.

-ves

Having quality partners means that more often than not, you have to share your haul with them.

He, like Kapil didn't really go out on a high as far as performances were concerned, more or less faded out.

See what I mean? I admire both bowlers, can definitely say both were great, but difficult for me to rate them.

Now as an all-rounder, Botham took over 100 catches(even though that was in a large measure due to the fact that he was a regular slip fielder) while Kapil, who was also a brilliant fielder took around 70. In batting, both were aggressive batsmen, but Botham was much more consistent. I would rank Botham slightly ahead of Kapil as an all-rounder, but as a bowler, it is difficult to rate them(atleast for me) because of the above very different situations under which they bowled.

Now, as to whether Botham is no:2 after Sobers or no:1 or whatever, that's another argument altogether. Imran comes into the picture at that time and again,it is a difficult choice at best.

 

[Rik]

Fair enough Anil, and you see why I rate Botham as a better all-rounder. I didn't say he was better at batting, or bowling, just that Botham was better all-round. But good points.

 

[Bazza]

Hey not all of us can spell Kaluwitharana or Muralitharan Rik - maybe we should be a little more tolerant. It is a big word after all...

 

[Rik]

Hey not all of us can spell Kaluwitharana or Muralitharan Rik - maybe we should be a little more tolerant. It is a big word after all...

No it's just the Indian way, they have allways called Ian Botham "Iron Bottom", I'm not sure if that's because of an ability to digest Indian cuisine though...:rolleyes:

 

[vandemataram]

OK, if you want to pick on those that've hardly had a chance in ODI cricket, then so can I:

Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 4w 5w SR Econ

L Balaji 1 4 0 44 0 - - - - - 11.00
M Kartik 5 47 1 236 4 59.00 3-36 - - 70.5 5.02
RS Sodhi 18 77 3 365 5 73.00 2-31 - - 92.4 4.74

Now, all 3 of those have been mentioned by correspondents as they should be in te squad, Kartik for the World Cup (based on that superb 5.02) and Sodhi as the answer to the all rounder problem (except those figures hardly suggest "All-rounder" to me)

The difference here is that the players you mentioned AREN"T in the Indian squad for the WC:P , Harmison is .The voices of their respective fans doesn't count, since selection is made by selectors and not by fans!

 

[vandemataram]

Please someone spell his name right! It's BOTHAM!

Your also forgetting that Kapil played 29 more Test matches than Botham...and took those Wickets at a higher average than Botham. And I can't remember him destroying the Australians strangely :rolleyes:

I wasn't suggesting that Botham was inferior to Kapil or so.Someone said that the Subcontinental bowlers just followed Botham when they got wickets in excess of 350+, when infact Kapil was always the one who was ahead of all others till sometime back!

 

[vandemataram]

"botham had pace paradise" you what? Botham had to face the Australians more than most players as he played for England and the Ashes were every 2 years.

The top All-Rounders ever are as follows:

Sobers
Botham
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Richard Hadlee

This is the list picked by Wisden, your not going to try and claim they are all idiots now are you?

I have the wisden list which has placed Imran at 11 while Botham is at 16 spot (the all time great players list) I guess the allrounder list is different as suggested by Rik, but i don't think many would agree with that list.Botham should be at third or fourth spot, though all were GREAT allrounders!

 

[Rik]

I have the wisden list which has placed Imran at 11 while Botham is at 16 spot (the all time great players list) I guess the allrounder list is different as suggested by Rik, but i don't think many would agree with that list.Botham should be at third or fourth spot, though all were GREAT allrounders!

Well Botham is certainly teacher's pet when it comes to Wisden...but 16th in all time ain't bad for a slogger who's bowling was likened to pick and mix...

 

[sasnoz]

rik i made a list of the allrounders of the 80s
so when did sobers play in the 80s

plus playing aus every two years has nothing to do with the wickets he played on,plus aus werent industructable then ask hadlee who destroyed them

and about the wisden people there judgement is not absolute and some1 like u just agrees with them without a opinion of your own

 

[Rik]

rik i made a list of the allrounders of the 80s
so when did sobers play in the 80s

plus playing aus every two years has nothing to do with the wickets he played on,plus aus werent industructable then ask hadlee who destroyed them

and about the wisden people there judgement is not absolute and some1 like u just agrees with them without a opinion of your own

Well Wisden have more of a clue about things than most people.

Also I said that I made mine about best ever all-rounders, and if you take away Sobers then you get the best all-rounders of the 80s. It doesn't take much to understand that.

By playing the Australians every 2 years he was facing stronger opposition than most players had 2 more often than most players. Well at least till the late 1980s.

You just seem to have trouble admitting Botham was a superb all-rounder.