Indian Management to File Complaint Against Aleem Dar

[Engle]

Would the Indian management complain had the decisions gone in favor of their stars Sachin/Dravid ?

 

[Sanz]

I'm pretty sure Dravid or Shukla did not call a news conference just to announce that they're lodging a complaint against the umpiring. The question of whether they were going to do something about the umpiring must have been thrown at Dravid or Shukla by the journalists, and the concerned person answered honestly.

There is no indication that this question was thrown at them, it seems that Shukla made his comments to the news agency PTI(Press Trust of India), hardly seems like a news conference interview.

The issue isn't hypocrisy, the issue is ensuring such glaring errors aren't made in future.

Now this seems to imply that these umpires are deliberately giving these wrong decisions and once the complaint is filed they will not give wrong decisions in the future.

If not How is lodging a complain and making a fuss in the public going to stop such genuine human errors from umpires who are really the best we have got today. Let's assume for a minute that ICC decides to take action against Taufel and Dar (two umpires in question through out of the series). As part of the action they decide to take these two out of the Elite panel, now are you telling me that it is a good thing and the guys who are going to replace Dar/Taufel is going to be as good and wont repeate these mistakes again ?

If you're involved in a car accident, it is upto you to follow up with your insurance provider. Bystanders on the street aren't going to do it for you. And if you're not affected by a car crash, you won't contact the insurance company. Simple as that. This isn't a moral discourse, this is practicality.

This is cricket not insurance claim. It is hypocrisy If you sit back and reap the benefits of all the umpring decisions that went in your favor and complain as soon as a decision is made against you. Infact you are equally responsible because you encouraged poor umpiring and umpires when it was going in your favor.

Lastly,If we consider only human aspects of umpiring, since Aleem Dar didn't have any access to technology in the middle, IMO he got both the decisions right. The technology indeed proved that his decision was correct in Dravid's case and in Tendulkar's case, it did show that there was a noise of the ball hitting the pad.

 

[Chubby Rain]

There is no indication that this question was thrown at them, it seems that Shukla made his comments to the news agency PTI(Press Trust of India), hardly seems like a news conference interview.

Then why paint it as one? Do you really believe the Indian administrative manager actively chased a news reporter and gave him this statement without being asked about anything related?

Now this seems to imply that these umpires are deliberately giving these wrong decisions and once the complaint is filed they will not give wrong decisions in the future

If not How is lodging a complain and making a fuss in the public going to stop such genuine human errors from umpires who are really the best we have got today. Let's assume for a minute that ICC decides to take action against Taufel and Dar (two umpires in question through out of the series). As part of the action they decide to take these two out of the Elite panel, now are you telling me that it is a good thing and the guys who are going to replace Dar/Taufel is going to be as good and wont repeate these mistakes again ?

That is an incorrect deduction. I've already explained why before. Lodging a complaint doesn't mean it was a delibrate mistake. Just as errors need not be delibrate, it also follows that errors need not necessarily be genuine. It is possible that umpires become incompetent. It could be something as simple as an umpire failing to read the line of the delivery when everyone else can do so in real time. Incompetence in umpiring is neither delibrate nor a genuine excusable mistake.

By lodging a complaint, the team can hope that the ICC ensures that undeserving umpires do not make it to the elite panel, review the instances of poor umpiring and figure out ways to prevent those mistakes by use of proper technology or training or otherwise.

Constant review and judgement is necessary to maintain standards, and stopping teams from pointing out errors is not the answer.

Regarding your point about replacing Dar and Taufel from the Elite panel, and fears of their replacements not being as good, that is a moot point. India felt Sehwag was underperforming, and took the step of replacing him with Karthik, an unnkown quantity. There was no guarantee Karthik would perform to the requisite standards. Teams all over the world follow that policy. Umpiring is no different. The Elite panel should be composed of umpires performing to the best standards possible. If some of them falter, and the ICC encourages complacency, we might as well remove the word 'Elite'. That said, it is your suggestion that any action the ICC takes could involve replacing those two afore named umpires, a suggestion I disagree with at this stage. I do not see reason to remove those two from the Elite panel as of now, but I do see the necessity of encouraging a system where they are placed under constant scrutiny by the teams they officiate for, like in this case.

This is cricket not insurance claim. It is hypocrisy If you sit back and reap the benefits of all the umpring decisions that went in your favor and complain as soon as a decision is made against you. Infact you are equally responsible because you encouraged poor umpiring and umpires when it was going in your favor.

So, if my neighbours house gets robbed, and I do not lodge a complaint if he doesn't, that makes me a hypocrite? Wouldn't I be encouraging crime if I don't? You're turning a simple situation into a moral dilemma. Don't exert yourself with sighting ghosts where none exist. Be practical. Every team has an obligation to look out for its interests, and does not have to exert itself on behalf of the others. I do not see England complaining about the umpiring decisions that went in their favour. I do not consider them hypocrites. They're just being practical.

Lastly,If we consider only human aspects of umpiring, since Aleem Dar didn't have any access to technology in the middle, IMO he got both the decisions right. The technology indeed proved that his decision was correct in Dravid's case and in Tendulkar's case, it did show that there was a noise of the ball hitting the pad.

Once again, I remind you that it is a mistake to assume that the final ODI was the sole reason for the lodging of the complaint. I do not think you are correct in your assessment of the Tendulkar decision, but that is a moot point anyway since you're still considering just the final ODI as a root cause.

 

[Sanz]

So, if my neighbours house gets robbed, and I do not lodge a complaint if he doesn't, that makes me a hypocrite? Wouldn't I be encouraging crime if I don't? You're turning a simple situation into a moral dilemma. Don't exert yourself with sighting ghosts where none exist. Be practical. Every team has an obligation to look out for its interests, and does not have to exert itself on behalf of the others. I do not see England complaining about the umpiring decisions that went in their favour. I do not consider them hypocrites. They're just being practical..

Err different analogy here. You are not the beneficiary if your neighbour's house is robbed. The correct analogy would be if the neighbor's house is robbed and all the money is deposited in your account, you accept it happily, but cry foul when they rob your house and deposit the money in your neighbour's bank.

You sure look out for your interest, but while doing so, you should not encourage poor umpiring i.e. not complain about the decisions that werein your favor.

 

[Sanz]

Then why paint it as one? Do you really believe the Indian administrative manager actively chased a news reporter and gave him this statement without being asked about anything related?

You are the one who is painting as if it was an interview and Shukla was only replying to a question asked to him. Yes I believe Shukla was giving this statement without being asked about it. Team officials pass comments to News Agencies on their own, which is what IMO Shukla did without consulting the captain. This is not the first time in the series, Shukla pass such statement regarding the Tendulkar retirement issue as well on his own, without any question from media without even consulting Tendulkar.

That is an incorrect deduction. I've already explained why before. Lodging a complaint doesn't mean it was a delibrate mistake. Just as errors need not be delibrate, it also follows that errors need not necessarily be genuine. It is possible that umpires become incompetent. It could be something as simple as an umpire failing to read the line of the delivery when everyone else can do so in real time. Incompetence in umpiring is neither delibrate nor a genuine excusable mistake.

But the point here is Umpires are not incompetent. Taufel just recieved the best umpire of the year, Dar's decision about Dravid proved to be right, like his 95% decisions. Some of errors only techonolgy could catch and it was not possible to catch most of those errors humanly. So complain for what, Human Errors, what is the point esp when your captain doesn't have confidence in technology ?

By lodging a complaint, the team can hope that the ICC ensures that undeserving umpires do not make it to the elite panel, review the instances of poor umpiring and figure out ways to prevent those mistakes by use of proper technology or training or otherwise
Constant review and judgement is necessary to maintain standards, and stopping teams from pointing out errors is not the answer.

Oh I am not against review and poiting umpiring errors, I am all for it, but please dont make it sound like whinning and dont do it in public. Dont give media an opportunity to do character assassination of umpires and all that. And lastly, please be consistent in your report. Dont laugh and pass it as slice of luck when you get one in your favor and cry and whinge when you get against you.

Regarding your point about replacing Dar and Taufel from the Elite panel, and fears of their replacements not being as good, that is a moot point. India felt Sehwag was underperforming, and took the step of replacing him with Karthik, an unnkown quantity. There was no guarantee Karthik would perform to the requisite standards. Teams all over the world follow that policy. Umpiring is no different. The Elite panel should be composed of umpires performing to the best standards possible. If some of them falter, and the ICC encourages complacency, we might as well remove the word 'Elite'. That said, it is your suggestion that any action the ICC takes could involve replacing those two afore named umpires, a suggestion I disagree with at this stage. I do not see reason to remove those two from the Elite panel as of now, but I do see the necessity of encouraging a system where they are placed under constant scrutiny by the teams they officiate for, like in this case.

The fact is that Sehwag was underperforming consistently, and Taufel/Dar are not and that is the basic difference here. Would you have appreciated if Coach/Captain publicly reported Sehwag's poor performance in one series after consistent showing for 2-3 years ?

If Taufel/Dar start performing poorly as umpires, then I would say yes fire them off of Elite list. And I dont encourage a system where umpires are under constant scrutiny esp if it is going to be public, like in this case.

 

[Chubby Rain]

Err different analogy here. You are not the beneficiary if your neighbour's house is robbed. The correct analogy would be if the neighbor's house is robbed and all the money is deposited in your account, you accept it happily, but cry foul when they rob your house and deposit the money in your neighbour's bank.

You sure look out for your interest, but while doing so, you should not encourage poor umpiring i.e. not complain about the decisions that werein your favor.

I’m not sure how you equate that with hypocrisy. While you can return the money in the real world, you cannot turn back time afterwards and reverse the decisions made by the umpire. Sure, if you refuse to return the money, and then complain when you’re the victim, you’re definitely indulging in hypocrisy. But that isn’t a valid scenario to be compared here, is it? It isn’t as if India flat out state that there were absolutely no decisions in their favour. Hence the incorrectness of your analogy.

Teams know there are processes in place that allow the disadvantaged teams to make their protest heard. If you see financial bungling of the sort you describe, you do not see both parties lodge complaints. The victim does so, and the beneficiary complies with the authorities. One cannot label the complainant as a hypocrite just because he didn’t lodge a complaint when he wasn’t the victim. To label him so would be stupid, to put it mildly. As long as India did not go out of their way to deliberately force decisions in their favour in a dishonest way on other occasions, they cannot be accused of hypocrisy. You fail to acknowledge the fundamental premise of ‘victim complains’.

 

[Chubby Rain]

You are the one who is painting as if it was an interview and Shukla was only replying to a question asked to him. Yes I believe Shukla was giving this statement without being asked about it. Team officials pass comments to News Agencies on their own, which is what IMO Shukla did without consulting the captain. This is not the first time in the series, Shukla pass such statement regarding the Tendulkar retirement issue as well on his own, without any question from media without even consulting Tendulkar.

So you do admit it is purely your opinion, and not fact?

But the point here is Umpires are not incompetent. Taufel just recieved the best umpire of the year, Dar's decision about Dravid proved to be right, like his 95% decisions. Some of errors only techonolgy could catch and it was not possible to catch most of those errors humanly. So complain for what, Human Errors, what is the point esp when your captain doesn't have confidence in technology ?

The captain might not believe in technology, but the rest of his team might. The captain is entitled to take into consideration the views of his team mates too. Dar might have been right about Dravid, but it is not proven fact that he was right about Tendulkar. Just because Taufel received an award doesn't mean all the umpire who officiated throughout the series are free of incompetence.

Oh I am not against review and poiting umpiring errors, I am all for it, but please dont make it sound like whinning and dont do it in public.

I do not see how this can be construed as whining. In that case, anyone who complains about anything on the face of the earth is a whiner. And I do not see reason to keep it private either.

The fact is that Sehwag was underperforming consistently, and Taufel/Dar are not and that is the basic difference here. Would you have appreciated if Coach/Captain publicly reported Sehwag's poor performance in one series after consistent showing for 2-3 years ?

If Taufel/Dar start performing poorly as umpires, then I would say yes fire them off of Elite list. And I dont encourage a system where umpires are under constant scrutiny esp if it is going to be public, like in this case.

Once again, I cannot stress this enough: Do not treat this as a protest against Dar and Taufel. This protest has been lodged against the standard of umpiring in the entire series. I'm pretty sure Dar and Taufel did not officiate in all 4 tests and 7 One dayers. there were other umpires involved too.

I do encourage such a scrutiny though. It keeps the umpires on their toes, and it isn't like people do not have eyes or brains enough to know how por the umpiring has been this tour. The umpires have only themselves to blame for finding themselves in this situation. If they are so sensitive to scrutiny, they might be advised to find desk jobs away from the spotlight.

 

[Sanz]

I’m not sure how you equate that with hypocrisy. While you can return the money in the real world, you cannot turn back time afterwards and reverse the decisions made by the umpire. Sure, if you refuse to return the money, and then complain when you’re the victim, you’re definitely indulging in hypocrisy. But that isn’t a valid scenario to be compared here, is it? It isn’t as if India flat out state that there were absolutely no decisions in their favour. Hence the incorrectness of your analogy.

Hey I didn't bring this robbing house analogy.It is you who brought this analogy or robbing house and insurance claims etc in this discussion of cricket, not dont fret when I present you . If you are benefitting from a neeighbourhood robbery in any way then it is your responsibility to report it immidiately and not wait until you are robbed and offer to return it only after it has been found out that you have been knowingly benefitting from the neighbourhood robbery. If you dont return the money on your own and complain when you are the victim, then it is hypocrisy even if you accept during the investigation that you were benefitting from it .

Same way If you are going to benefitting from poor umpiring and know that you have knicked the ball and umpire has missed it, it is your responsibility to tell the umpire that you knicked the ball. If you dont report it either immidiately to the umpire or afterwards in the series report then it is akin to the situation above when you decide to complain against the decisions that go against you. It will indeed be hypocrisy.

I agree, You may not be able to reverse those decision that went in your favor, but you certainly can be honest in your report and comment about the umpiring standards in general and point out the occasions when the decisions were wrong even if it was in your favor. But if you choose to ignore the entire issue of poor umpiring altogether(because you benefitted from it) and report it only when you are on the wrong side of it then yes it is opportunistic and hypocritical.

Teams know there are processes in place that allow the disadvantaged teams to make their protest heard. If you see financial bungling of the sort you describe, you do not see both parties lodge complaints. The victim does so, and the beneficiary complies with the authorities. One cannot label the complainant as a hypocrite just because he didn’t lodge a complaint when he wasn’t the victim. To label him so would be stupid, to put it mildly. As long as India did not go out of their way to deliberately force decisions in their favour in a dishonest way on other occasions, they cannot be accused of hypocrisy. You fail to acknowledge the fundamental premise of ‘victim complains’.

What do you mean India didn't go out of their way to deliberately force decision ? Appealing after every ball in tight situation is indeed going out of the way, are you saying that India have not accepted and would not accept those decision for those stupid over appeals knowing fully well that 98% of those are not-outs ? They clearly go out of their way to get umpires to give outs when there are not and they happily accept it.

And how is India a victim here, Did they lose the ODI series because of Umpiring ?

 

[Sanz]

So you do admit it is purely your opinion, and not fact?

There was no news conference, no one asked the question. so it must have been an information passed voluntarily by Rajiv Shukla, who has a history of doing that, hence It is a logical conclusion.

The captain might not believe in technology, but the rest of his team might. The captain is entitled to take into consideration the views of his team mates too. Dar might have been right about Dravid, but it is not proven fact that he was right about Tendulkar. Just because Taufel received an award doesn't mean all the umpire who officiated throughout the series are free of incompetence.

Rest of the team doesn't write the team report, Captain does. And captain doesn't feel confident in technology. The major issue through out the series has been the umpiring of Taufel and not others, so it is him whose competence is in question here.

I do not see how this can be construed as whining. In that case, anyone who complains about anything on the face of the earth is a whiner. And I do not see reason to keep it private either.

It depends on the language one uses and when/how one uses. There is a fine line between filling a complaint and whinning. Rajiv Shukla's statements sounded like Whinning, Dravid's didn't. And it should be kept private because it has something to do with professionalism. Dar/Taufel are pretty competent individuals, infact more competent than anyone in their profession right now, and to bring out this sort of mistakes in public give the media a chance to do a character assasination, puts them under extreme pressure and what not.

I do encourage such a scrutiny though. It keeps the umpires on their toes, and it isn't like people do not have eyes or brains enough to know how por the umpiring has been this tour. The umpires have only themselves to blame for finding themselves in this situation. If they are so sensitive to scrutiny, they might be advised to find desk jobs away from the spotlight.

The last line of this quote is just pure rubbish and clearly shows your general disrespectful attitude towards umpires. You wont find more dignified umpires than Taufel and Dar. If that is how you keep umpires on their toes then good luck with it, very soon you will be left with Ashoka DeSilva's of the world. You promote good umpiring by educating them with the help of technology, not by putting them under constant scrutiny.

 

[honestbharani]

Whether or not Rajiv Shukla is lodging the complaint is not the issue here. If the captain feels that umpiring wasn't up to the mark then he has all the right to put it in his report/Feedback. What is the point of going to the media and making statements like :-

"We will follow whatever is the procedure and lodge a complaint....We'll lodge a complaint with the ICC about the decisions,"

Maybe he said that because he was asked about it. He didn't say "we lost because of these decisions", did he?

 

[honestbharani]

Would the Indian management complain had the decisions gone in favor of their stars Sachin/Dravid ?

would any other team have done that?

 

[honestbharani]

There is no indication that this question was thrown at them, it seems that Shukla made his comments to the news agency PTI(Press Trust of India), hardly seems like a news conference interview.



Now this seems to imply that these umpires are deliberately giving these wrong decisions and once the complaint is filed they will not give wrong decisions in the future.

If not How is lodging a complain and making a fuss in the public going to stop such genuine human errors from umpires who are really the best we have got today. Let's assume for a minute that ICC decides to take action against Taufel and Dar (two umpires in question through out of the series). As part of the action they decide to take these two out of the Elite panel, now are you telling me that it is a good thing and the guys who are going to replace Dar/Taufel is going to be as good and wont repeate these mistakes again ?




This is cricket not insurance claim. It is hypocrisy If you sit back and reap the benefits of all the umpring decisions that went in your favor and complain as soon as a decision is made against you. Infact you are equally responsible because you encouraged poor umpiring and umpires when it was going in your favor.

Lastly,If we consider only human aspects of umpiring, since Aleem Dar didn't have any access to technology in the middle, IMO he got both the decisions right. The technology indeed proved that his decision was correct in Dravid's case and in Tendulkar's case, it did show that there was a noise of the ball hitting the pad.

there were guys in the commentary box calling it LIVE saying that the noise was bat on pad... So how come Dar's decision can be claimed to be right? AT best, it was a mistake...


And secondly, just because the story is from PTI doesn't mean there were no journalists asking questions. PTI guys could have very well asked the question and got that answer.


And thirdly, yes, teams won't complain if the decisions go their way. No team ever has and no team ever will. But the best practical way of trying to better the system is by getting feedback and having an official forum to hear complaints and that is what the ICC have done. It is obvious that teams getting the better deal of the bad decisions WILL NOT use these and only teams which have been affected will. Doesn't mean you have to go around painting it as "sour grapes" every time a team does this.

 

[itduzz]

Pakistan shud also file a complaint against Indian umpire Jay Prakaash who made 10 blunders to gift Kumble 10 fer in delhi test in 1999.

 

[Perm]

Pakistan shud also file a complaint against Indian umpire Jay Prakaash who made 10 blunders to gift Kumble 10 fer in delhi test in 1999.

 

[Richard]

Pakistan shud also file a complaint against Indian umpire Jay Prakaash who made 10 blunders to gift Kumble 10 fer in delhi test in 1999.

 

[SJS]

We still have no confirmation of any official complaint by BCCI. Wonder if all this debate will turn out to be hot air.

 

[Sanz]

We still have no confirmation of any official complaint by BCCI. Wonder if all this debate will turn out to be hot air.

Dravid touches on umpiring issue

London: Rahul Dravid said the captain’s report would include his observations on umpiring during the seventh NatWest ODI. On Sachin Tendulkar being wrongly given out caught behind, he replied, “It obviously was a huge decision. He is an in-form batsman and one good partnership would have taken us to 250.”

http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/09/stories/2007090961821900.htm

 

[Sanz]

Maybe he said that because he was asked about it. He didn't say "we lost because of these decisions", did he?

That should not be a reason to make ridiculous statements. Dravid clearly implied the importance of that decision and that is as candid as one can be over a particuolar dismissal.

 

[adharcric]

That should not be a reason to make ridiculous statements. Dravid clearly implied the importance of that decision and that is as candid as one can be over a particuolar dismissal.

What is the "ridiculous statement" you are referring to? Made by Dravid or Shukla?

 

[Engle]

So they are complaining bcuz it was their star batsman playing in prob his last Int in Eng in a deciding match of the series. IOW, how dare you give him out ?

Had it been a number 11 batsman with many years ahead of him and not in a decider, nobody would've heard a peep from them.

Umpiring should remain the same; regardless of the batsman, his legacy or the state of the match.