Indian Management to File Complaint Against Aleem Dar

[silentstriker]

No one is asking for unlimited referrals. Two per innings per side.

 

[Richard]

If the complaint is on the basis solely of the final game of the tour, it's the most ludicrous complaint I've ever heard. Overtaking Nasser Hussain's in the First ODI of the series in India in 2001\02.

If it's on the basis of the general standard of Umpiring, any complaint is a fair one. The standard of Umpiring must improve IMO, and it won't take drastic measures to do so. It's time it was done - it's been time for at least three or four years. Aleem Dar is not a poor Umpire, not at all, yet he (and everyone else) still makes more errors than anyone wants to see. It's unavoidable. Humans using only their eyes to make split-second decisions will make mistakes.

To Heath - the main reason no-one is talking about the Uthappa decision is that a bad out decision will always get criticised; a bad not out decision will barely be noticed if it has no real impact (which it didn't here because Uthappa scored about 5 more before getting out a 2nd time), and even if it does (see the Broad lbw not given in the Fourth game, which was quite possibly pivotal) is still usually noticed less than a bad out one.

This, of course, is completely wrong. A bad decision is a bad decision regardless of whether it falls into any of the above three categories. However, this pattern is undeniable.

To Heath again - the Dravid dismissal was as clear-cut as any dismissal ever is. It was obviously out. Dravid was wrong to think he hadn't hit it.

If that were to be given not-out on the basis of doubt, no decision would ever be given out, even one where 2 batsmen ended-up at the same end in a run-out.

Regarding this stupid referrals system - I'm glad it was a dismal failure and I hope the ridiculous idea now gets chucked out the fifth-floor window, never to be seen again. We can do just fine without it.

To hbh - how does this not look like a sour-grapes scenario if (and I emphasise the the if) the complaint is being made purely on the basis of the last game? It'd be absurd to do so, this is a fairly unimportant ODI series (it's not remotely likely to affect India's World Cup chances if they win or lose this series) and it's a single bad decision. No-one has any right to complain here unless they lodge a complaint every time they receive a single error.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I agree with most of what you've said Richard, but with the Dravid dismissal, it took (as I said) a good while for the replays to prove he was out. Feasibly, the tv umpire would not have seen all of these replays within the time required (do we really want them to um and ah for 10 minutes over every bloody referral?) and thus it wouldn't have been given out.

I also agree with you on the Uthappa decision - it was just as wrong, but human nature kind of glosses over errors where there was little net effect, or where the player is not as 'important' to the team. A complaint on the 7th ODI in general would be awful (in fact, the other umpire, Gould as I recall had an excellent game, making some pretty tough, but very accurate decisions; including one of the things I find very difficult to judge - very thin inside edges onto the pad in lbw decisions)

To silentstriker - if you bring in a referrals system, a limit of 2 incorrect referrals per side is not going to be the end of it. As soon as the 2 referrals are used and a glaring error is made and cannot be referred, the supporters will be up in arms again. It can only end up, to my mind, with everything being referred to the tv umpires.

Finally, what REALLY pisses me off about this constant spotlight on umpires in this day and age is that it shows to CLUB cricketers that you can get away with showing more and more dissent to an umpire (standing your ground, verbal etc.) and this certainly does filter down to club cricket. I've seen some dreadful behaviour by club players in the last couple of years that was very, very rare even 5 years ago, let alone 10. Football culture rubbing off, or is it the gradual undermining of the umpire's role; bearing in mind that TV REPLAYS CANNOT BE PART OF CLUB CRICKET!

 

[Richard]

I know, it's very frustrating that TV replays cannot filter down to lower levels. So many do not think about this fact, in their incorrect contentions that the international level is the only level where getting decisions right matters. I hope one day, though, that cameras at any decent ground where a good standard of cricket is played will indeed happen. After all, who'd have thought in 1902 (the first time Test cricket was filmed) that motion cameras would one day attend every Test-match and scrutinise every tiny detail? No-one, I'd be willing to bet.

Regarding the Dravid dismissal again - such cases, where it takes more than a minute to establish the truth, are exceptionally rare. You'll have entire seasons plenty often enough which go by without such a case. Most of the time you know upon a replay or two, and every now and then after seeing the first Snicko\HotSpot\red-mat-and-fade. And surely as HotSpot and Snicko get used by those who can put them to real use (ie, Umpires) the time required to get them going will be decreased.

The magnifier has already been being used for ages where it's needed.

 

[honestbharani]

To hbh - how does this not look like a sour-grapes scenario if (and I emphasise the the if) the complaint is being made purely on the basis of the last game? It'd be absurd to do so, this is a fairly unimportant ODI series (it's not remotely likely to affect India's World Cup chances if they win or lose this series) and it's a single bad decision. No-one has any right to complain here unless they lodge a complaint every time they receive a single error.

I dunno. I think it is not sour grapes because they are not saying they lost because of it. They may feel that it was an obvious not out, which is what even the commentators said it was and that is the end of that. The players out on the field have a much better idea of what looked out and what didn't than you or I do and maybe they felt it was the worst one they got in the tour yet. If that is the way they feel, what is wrong if they complain about it and where does the sour grapes come in here?

 

[Richard]

Because it's impossibly unlikely they'd have complained had it been, say, the opening game of the series or, even more so, had they won the series before this game.

Basically, blaming an Umpiring decision for the loss of the series which, while not as absurd as it might seem (one bad decision can indeed change the course of matches and series', despite protestations to the contrary), is still a bit far-fetched.

I've seen many worse decisions which the players have barely said a word about. Indisputably worse.

 

[Arjun]

This is utter rubbish. The Indians can't make excuses for the way they played on Saturday. Was an umpire to blame for Ganguly's lack of singles and a miscued hook? Was he to blame for Gambhir edging? Or Uthappa slogging? All of them were equally capable of taking the team somewhere, but if they still play like a one-man or two-man unit (despite seven batsmen), they're headed nowhere, but downhill.

 

[Chubby Rain]

A team is entitled to make official complaints about incorrect umpiring. If nothing else, atleast it keeps the umpires on their toes. I don't get the whole sour grapes scenario some are painting. It isn't as if India are asking for the decisions to be reversed. Laughable really.

 

[honestbharani]

Because it's impossibly unlikely they'd have complained had it been, say, the opening game of the series or, even more so, had they won the series before this game.

Basically, blaming an Umpiring decision for the loss of the series which, while not as absurd as it might seem (one bad decision can indeed change the course of matches and series', despite protestations to the contrary), is still a bit far-fetched.

I've seen many worse decisions which the players have barely said a word about. Indisputably worse.

where did anyone from the INdian team management say that they lost because of these decisions?


They may feel that these decisions cost them more, because this was the decider, which is perfectly understandable and maybe that is why they are complaining about it but again, how can one be sure that this is just "sour grapes"? Sour grapes is when people actually say that something contributed to something's victory or something of that sort. The Indian team mgmt is simply complaining about some decisions which they think were bad through the proper channels.

 

[Unattainableguy]

where did anyone from the INdian team management say that they lost because of these decisions?

They don't have to say directly that they lost because of these decisions. Fact is, they're complaining about decisions and not just that but also lodging a complaint which to me clearly implies that they feel India possibly would have won if not for those decisions.

 

[Chubby Rain]

They don't have to say directly that they lost because of these decisions. Fact is, they're complaining about decisions and not just that but also lodging a complaint which to me clearly implies that they feel India possibly would have won if not for those decisions.

So what you're saying is complaints against bad umpiring shouldn't be lodged, right?

 

[Unattainableguy]

So what you're saying is complaints against bad umpiring shouldn't be lodged, right?

Not over one bad decision, no way.

And the thing is umpire will make mistakes, if not in every game, atleast in every 2nd or 3rd, so it doesn't make sense if all teams decided to lodge complaints over one or two bad decisions. And teams, captains understand this and that's why this is probably the first time you have a team complaining over one simple umpiring error. Maybe in a case where you have a umpire and he has been consistently giving you bad decisions( like Darrel Hair for example did in both Eng- Pak series against Pakistan) then you could sympathize with the team complaining but that isn't the case here. It's just over 1 bad decision, and it doesn't make sense to complain therefore.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

And the thing is umpire will make mistakes, if not in every game, atleast in every 2nd or 3rd, so it doesn't make sense if all teams decided to lodge complaints over one or two bad decisions. And teams, captains understand this and that's why this is probably the first time you have a team complaining over one simple umpiring error. Maybe in a case where you have a umpire and he has been consistently giving you bad decisions( like Darrel Hair for example did in both Eng- Pak series against Pakistan) then you could sympathize with the team complaining but that isn't the case here. It's just over 1 bad decision, and it doesn't make sense to complain therefore.

I quite agree with pretty much all you've said there.

By the way, I've lodged an official complaint with the ICC regarding Saurav Ganguly's injudicious shot selection in the 7th ODI. I feel that it wrecked India's chances of winning and I thought I saw him wearing a Cronje monogrammed leather jacket after the match.

I am also lodging an official complaint regarding Dravid getting Yuvraj to bowl that last over to Mascarenhas.

The final complaint in my letter is in regards to India's performance at the World Cup. I felt tremendously let down after paying my Sky subscription fees and not getting the chance to watch India's all-conquering ODI team in the final. Bitterly disappointed.

 

[Chubby Rain]

Not over one bad decision, no way.

And the thing is umpire will make mistakes, if not in every game, atleast in every 2nd or 3rd, so it doesn't make sense if all teams decided to lodge complaints over one or two bad decisions. And teams, captains understand this and that's why this is probably the first time you have a team complaining over one simple umpiring error. Maybe in a case where you have a umpire and he has been consistently giving you bad decisions( like Darrel Hair for example did in both Eng- Pak series against Pakistan) then you could sympathize with the team complaining but that isn't the case here. It's just over 1 bad decision, and it doesn't make sense to complain therefore.

The thing is, isn't it a false assumption being made wrt the complaint being specifically about Umpire Dar?

I quote cricinfo:

India's administrative manager Rajeev Shukla had earlier said that the team were planning to lodge a protest regarding umpiring standards in this series. "We'll lodge a complaint with the ICC about the decisions," Shukla was quoted as saying in PTI. Dravid was expected to furnish an umpires' report, as all captains do at the end of the series, and said he will convey his thoughts in that report.

Seems like some articles and persons coating the issue with their own prejudices. After all, India vs Pakistani Umpire makes for juicier copy than India vs Umpires. India have suffered a lot of horrible decisions the entire tour, and they're entitled to lodge a complaint about the shoddy umpiring. They have done no wrong, either legally or morally.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Seems like some articles and persons coating the issue with their own prejudices. After all, India vs Pakistani Umpire makes for juicier copy than India vs Umpires. India have suffered a lot of horrible decisions the entire tour, and they're entitled to lodge a complaint about the shoddy umpiring. They have done no wrong, either legally or morally.

That's certainly much more reasonable. The way I read this thread is that people were unsure as to whether they were complaining about the last ODI or the tour in general. Just as long as this doesn't turn into one of those 'prejudice' debates about umpires. I thought we'd moved on from that one with neutral umpires standing in tests; but you never know.

 

[SJS]

That's certainly much more reasonable. The way I read this thread is that people were unsure as to whether they were complaining about the last ODI or the tour in general. Just as long as this doesn't turn into one of those 'prejudice' debates about umpires. I thought we'd moved on from that one with neutral umpires standing in tests; but you never know.

It cant be anyone's case that umpires like Aleem Dar are biased because it simply isn't true.

It also can't be anyone's case that the umpiring during this tour has been anything but poor. That India were (and they really were) the worse affected by poor umpiring is a fact but it is incidental to poor umpiring. It could very well have been the other way around with England suffering.

Should really bad umpiring go un-reported? Of course not. How else are we going to do something about it and why have such a thing as a captain's report?

Does the fact that that the side that is reporting the bad umpiring is the one that had the worst of it change any of the above? Of course not. And its not a surprise.

Is reporting bad umpiring necessarily a case of 'whinging' and being 'bad losers'? Definitely not.

Can it be anyone's case that better umpiring would have seen a completely different result in the series? Of course not. It would depend on a host of other factors. A Tendulkar ruled not out at thirty would still need to make sure he did not get out again and even that does not guarantee a win. This is conjecture.

Why do we want to make something that really is about the umpiring standards something personal.

By the way, winners have also been known to report bad umpiring in the past.

 

[pup11]

ICC has a review panel which watches all the decisions made by every umpire on the elite panel and judges how many right and wrong decisions they made in a particular season and if an umpire makes too many mistakes he is then dropped from the elite panel.

In a way India shouldn't have lodged an official complaint against the umpire because then in a sense they are trying to convey that the umpires made the wrong decisions deliberately (which i hope and believe they didn't).

 

[SJS]

• The ICC has a performance management system for umpires with three key elements:
  
• * Match reports from captains and referees;
• * Video analysis by an independent assessor; and
• * Feedback from the ICC Umpires and Referees Manager.

This is from the ICC site

Its not yet clear what form this 'protest' is taking.
If India is reporting under this mechanism its normal and in order.

 

[Sanz]

A captain's report is different from Official complaint. The way Rajiv Shukla, who happens to suffer from foot in mouth syndrome, came out in his interview, it was pretty clear that this is not the Skipper Report he was talking about.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/007200709082032.htm

India to file complaint against Dar's dubious decisions

London, Sept. 8 (PTI): Simmering after the dubious dismissal of star batsmen Sachin Tendulkar and Rahul Dravid in the series decider, Team India management has decided to lodge an official complaint with the International Cricket Council.

"We'll lodge a complaint with the ICC about the decisions," administrative manager of the side Rajeev Shukla said.

Dar did little to enhance his reputation as one of the better umpires around by giving two dubious decisions, which reduced India to 59 for four.

Tendulkar was out in the 16th over when Andrew Flintoff induced a loose drive from the batsman and though the ball went past the bat without any contact, Dar upheld England's appeal that had Tendulkar livid.

Television replays also showed it was only his bat clipping the pad that made a noise but Dar felt otherwise. That cut short Tendulkar's 46-ball stay in the middle yielding 30 runs in his final ODI appearance on British soil.

The Lord's crowd booed Dar for the poor decision.

Earlier, Dar erred in his decision and ruled Dravid out for a duck off Flintoff.

Flintoff had pitched it on back off a length and there was a noise as Dravid dropped his bat. Dar again upheld the vociferous appeal of the English side as Dravid shook his head in disbelief and grumpily walked off.

Shukla asserted that India would not just grin and bear it and said, "We will follow whatever is the procedure and lodge a complaint."
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The above report is from Hindu and not from the tabloid of India.

 

[R_D]

not sure how sour grapes comes into it seeing as they are complaining about the overall poor performance of umpires during the series.